Thanks Hornetsnest. This is an interesting development. Please keep us posted, with links to news articles if possible. If this proves to work out, the JWs will be flying out of the Watchtower faster than bats out of hell.
Thanks again,
Jim Whitney
Amazing1914
JoinedPosts by Amazing1914
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Fascinating development in sex-abuse cases!
by hornetsnest ini dont get on here very often, but when i saw this i figured that you would like to know about it.
it seems that the catholic church here in oregon (u. s.
) is doing everything possible to shield its assets from the sex-abuse liability they have incurred.
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Ozzie's Weekend Poll #142 Elder bags
by ozziepost inhow's things?
here in the eastern states downunder we're having spring-like weather with clear blue skies, warm sunshine in the low 20s celsius even though it's right in the middle of winter.
very nice too!.
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Amazing1914
Hi Ozzie,
I hope all it well with you. Well, this is a really good poll, because you have hit on a serious item for Elders. I can give reasons for every one of them. All of my answers are serious, even though some levity is used.
1. To keep all the rules books. Yes, the Pay Attention Book for expected and unexpected Elder meetings and JC meetings.
2. To make themselves look important. Without question. We had to have the big piano-hinged type to hold everything, but it also was the JW form of the Catholic Roman Collar. It identified us as Elders. Our Clergy icon.
3.
They married them! (naughty, naughty Ozzie!!) No so naughty ... I have little doubt that some Elders kept no-no literature in them.4. To trip the microphone attendants. And the cute sisters.
5. To keep their "theocratic" library in. Where else?
6. To keep all the Society letters to BOE. Only the current ones to be read. The rest were with me as Congregation Secretary ... in my big metal file cabinette.
7. To keep the Society letters to answer the publishers who ask "What do we believe now?" Yep, especially when we knew there were issues coming up. Such as whether to help a poor brother get on his feet. A BOE letter would always be handy to show that its not our job to care for these.
8. To keep the bound volumes for the meeting after the meeting (in the back room). Yep, and this is why 3-M corporation loved us for buying all those yellow sticky pads to mark our place in the Bound Volumes.
9. To impress the C.O. Most important. An Elder with a big bag full of all his Elder stuff helped the CO know that we were serious, mature, and activ Elders, worthy of being taken serious, and used for even greater privileges.
10. To impress the "publishers". Absolutely, including the cute single pioneer sisters. We also wanted the Publishers to know who the bosses were.
11. They need more books than the "publishers". What else could it be. Beside our Large Print Bible, we had to have a set of Insight volumes, the Pay Attention book, A JC file or two, several big note pads, a Reasoning Book, and All Scripture book, an Organization book, and School Guidebook, a section for letters, notes, and congegation legal stuff, plus a lunch when at Kingdom Ministry School for Elders.
12. Lunch. Made special by the little woman.
13. Other (please detail) Then, there was the one last thing, but no Elder or even ex-Elder, or ex-JW-ex-Elder will ever talk about. We are under oath for life.
Jim W.
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"National Companies", a MLM scam?
by Fatfreek ini attended, with my wife, a meeting last night.
the mlm company is called "national companies", and sells two packages, each a two year agreement.
i can't find any internet dialog, pro or con, about this company which is supposed to have started up mid 90's.
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Amazing1914
Fatfreak,By using such a generic business name like "National Companies" they make it very hard for consumers to use search engines to find complaints on them. I would write to the Florida Department of Consumer Affairs, or Florida Attorney General and ask if there are any complaints against this company. They are a Florida corporation, and must be registered as such with the State. I would also contact the Better Business Bureau in Davie, Florida to see if they have any information. I would never sign on to a company like this unless they check out squeaky clean.
Here is some of the links that I found interesting:
National Companies 4350 Oakes Road, Suite 512
Davie, FL 33314
Phone: 954.584.2151Year in Business:
Compensation Plan: BinaryProducts: Benefits PackagesNational Companies Website is no longer active: Website: http://www/gign.com
MLM Directory: http://www.mlminsider.com/n.htm
MLMs May Be Identify Theft Ring: http://www.mlmlegal.com/identity_theft.html
Watchdog Group: http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/Report_CompanyWRONG.html
What to do if you are unsure: http://www.mlmwatch.org/00AboutMLMWatch/faq.html
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Nigerian 419 scam
by fairchild inhas anyone here heard of the nigerian 419 scam?
i got one of those scam mails in my in-box the other day.
the mail intrigued me, and i did some searching on it through the internet.
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Amazing1914
Some time ago, I receivd a hand mailed letter from Canada with a variation of the Nigerian story, and a plea to help secure the fortune. Because I work in financial services, I had to notify the authorities. The FBI took the letter because it could have finger prints that they can follow. Although, the matter normally gets turned over to the US Secret Service. I always thought the Secret Service only protected the President. Evidently, they also investigate international fraud schemes. Because Al Qa'eda and various terror organization use scams to get money, Homeland Security may get involved. Since the Secret Service, FBI and other authority are well aware of the Nigerian scam, I guess all there is left for us to do is warn others who need it.
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Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God
by Amazing1914 inread at your own risk
dichotomy of a schizophrenic god
the following post was the basis of my arguments in a debate with jim penton in october 2004 at the northwest conference in wenatche, wa.
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Amazing1914
Hi IW and Satanus,
IW: I am in the middle of adding more to my story. I will be dividing and adding chapters. I need to correct grammar and spelling. Then I will publish it. I will add an appendix that has such things as my correspondence with the Society, and my final 29 page 'disassociation' letter to the Elders. So, for now, I am not going to post it here.
Satanus:
I see. *catches breath* You mentioned that you are pacifist at this point because you aren't sure what god wants you to do. I understand that. It will be interesting to see where you go when you finish waiting (if i'm here to see it).
I did not say that I am a pacifist. I am a conscientious objector for the time being. However, I should have better stated that I am so because I do not see any wars on an international scale that I would or should get involved in ... so in that sense I am not sure what God would want of me. I agree with the war on terror in principle, and I am pleased that the people of Iraq are now free. So, in one sense, that war and the one in Afghanistan had good results. But, I am not sure that as a Christian what God would have expected of me in those cases. Likewise, I fully support the state in its war on crime and exercise of police powers. I support capital punishment in some cases. I would defend my home and family to the death.
Christianity has been warlike from the beginning. It has also mouthed the loving of enemies, feeding them, etc, and the 'golden rule' since it's beginning. That method has succeeded like gangbusters. Have you dismissed the possibility that god is schizophrenic, per the bible?
Christianity, in its beginning was very peaceful. Early Christians would not participate in the Roman Army, and would not allow someone to get baptized if they joined the Roman Army. On the other hand, Cornelius, a Roman Army officer was blessed by the Holy Spirit and accepted into the Church while he was still in the army. Some Christians believe that he must have left the Roman Army, and others like me, say we just don't know and cannot judge. When Rome persecuted Christians by throwing them to the lions, it would make sense that Christians would not join the Roman Army.
I don't think that God is schizophrenic. Rather, I think we simply need to better understand how the Bible was written in more of an allegorical sense than we previously realized. My Jewish side of the family have told me that Jews have long held that much of the Bible is allegorical, intended to teach lessons, and not to be taken literally. However, some of the history is literal, and clearly shows that God uses war. So, I have to accept that war is not always bad.
Jim W.
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Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God
by Amazing1914 inread at your own risk
dichotomy of a schizophrenic god
the following post was the basis of my arguments in a debate with jim penton in october 2004 at the northwest conference in wenatche, wa.
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Amazing1914
Hi Satanus,
I still continue to be a Christian. But, I accept that war, and sefl defense, and state executions under the right conditions are acceptable. I see some of these accounts in the OT as possibly allegorical. I am not a pacifist per se. The problem I have with some who insist on pacifism is that their view, while noble and not harmful to others, does not square up with God, who felt quite free to whack humans as he desired. We have to be intellectually honest, and at least acknowledge that war and killing was done at God's direction.
Jim W.
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Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God
by Amazing1914 inread at your own risk
dichotomy of a schizophrenic god
the following post was the basis of my arguments in a debate with jim penton in october 2004 at the northwest conference in wenatche, wa.
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Amazing1914
READ AT YOUR OWN RISK
Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God
The following post was the basis of my arguments in a debate with Jim Penton in October 2004 at the Northwest Conference in Wenatche, WA. He argued that a Christian should be a pacifist, whereas I argued that we should not judge a Christian who may be in the military. I am a conscientious objector, but understand that some wars must be fought. I do not include Jim Penton's many good points and arguments, because that is not the reason for this posting.
This post caused some serious consternation resulting in some accusing me of blasphemy and abominations. It is written in a thought-provoking style with NO intended disrespect for Almighty God. I admit that some of the points made could shock some Christians because of the hard realities involved. Some Christians may not have realized some of these points before, and could find their views threatened. The word "dichotomy" used in the title is the clue as to how this post was constructed, and should have been understood. I am interested in your comments. Thanks, Jim W. Posted by Jim Whitney on Sun - Jul 17 - 7:51pm on Channel C: I will provide scriptures later if needed. We have been talking about the ways of war and whether Christians would or should serve in the military. Lets start at the beginning. The Bible tells us that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not change. What is his view of war?
In Genesis it is God who first introduces the spinning and flaming "Sword" to Adam and Eve to keep them from the Garden of Eden. These two new humans had no experience with war, or weapons, or anything like that. God himself introduced the first weapon in recorded history.
God does not deal with Adam and Eve's sin with a nice discussion and some non-physical or non-violent discipline ... no, for eating some fruit, he chooses the death penalty, and a difficult death by old age, disease, and infirmity. Further, he condemns the entire human race to death by such horrid means ... all for a bite of the apple.
God then fights for his captive people to get them out of Egypt. Does he use nice guy passive tactics, or advanced technology to merely gently bar the Egyptians from messing with his people? No, he kills their first-born, wipe out crops, send in locusts, turns water to blood, and then in a giant swoop, kills Pharaoh’s army in the collapse of the walls of water in the Red sea. This is God's example to all nations and to Israel, his people. Kill, kill, kill ... slaughter with violence!
Then, when Israel was about to take the promised land, could God simply have taken some barren unoccupied dessert and made it lush with life and moved his people there ... not uprooting other nations? Would not this have demonstrated peace? Or, if he was going to dispossess people from the land for Israel, could he not moved them gently without killing them, thus setting an example of kindness? No, he had Israel go in and slaughter these people for decades.
Not only did Israel slaughter male warriors, they killed civilian men, women, children, babies, and even livestock in a purification process - all "ordered" by God, and it was considered rank unfaithfulness by God to even keep a small spoil, such as some little gold bars. Achan and his clan were wiped out for this, and before they were wiped out, Israeli soldiers died because of his sin! Why? What possible pathetic excuse can anyone today make for this kind of psychotic behavior?
Added to this, God deliberately kept nations about Israel in order for Israel to fight so as to keep them trained for war. In other words, God uses such violence to keep teaching violence for the very purpose of war! This was God's clear command! YHWH is a manly person of war, a God of Armies, and he has his people slaughter other peoples like there is no tomorrow! Oh sure, he stops David from building his temple because of the blood on his hands ... the very God ordained and commanded blood!
If we look at the animal kingdom, whether in the sea, air or land, we see constant vicious death. The lion is designed to chase down and kill a deer or gazelle. Snakes bite and their poison kills with extreme pain and suffering. Bears cut their victims to pieces with their powerful sharp nails. Bulls gore with their horns, insects like scorpions and black widows kill with powerful poison, and so on ... all designed by God in the most violent and gruesome manner of killing. Animals kill Christians and non-Christians alike all the time.
To save humanity, God does not choose some pacifist method to set any example of peacefully redeeming humans. No, he chooses to have his own son die by being nailed to a cross/stake at the hands of soldiers ... and having his side pierced with a spear. Why the violence?
Yes, Jesus told Peter to put away the sword just before he died ... but why did Peter and the Apostles keep and bare swords in the first place? Clearly, Jesus was not blind and would have said something if weapons were so bad to have on hand! And, Jesus took the opportunity to brag about the legions of angels he had at his command, ready to do battle if he wants. Why have such heavenly armies? Why brag about this type of capability?
God then shows his own son in the future, with armies of angels and resurrected heavenly humans engaged in the greatest massive slaughter in the history of the universe. Eyes popping out of heads, hands instantly withering, blocks of stones and fire falling from the sky to crush and burn people.
But then, through Jesus, we are told to love our enemy, do good to our enemy, do not resist our enemy, to put away the sword, stand down, and accept being slaughtered by our enemies. We are to show love, kindness, gentleness, and peace ... amidst all these terrible metaphors of war and real life history of God's wars, and promised wars in the future. All the violent and bloodthirsty examples are given to us at the hand of God, and we are to learn peace?
Is there something wrong with this picture? Are we getting conflicting messages? Or, is there something wrong with our interpretation of Jesus and his teachings?
God tells us, through the Apostle Paul that the government is our minister, appointed by God as his servant to execute justice with the sword. So, some kind of police or military force has been used to deal harshly with bad guys, and sometimes good guys.
I understand all the good studious and scholarly efforts to quote early Christians, and take certain Bible verses to prove one side or the other ... but frankly, anyone can take either side and make a case that God either loves peace, gentleness, and kindness, or one can make a case that God is a blood-thirsty lover of killing and he glorifies war. The Battle of the Great Day of God the Almighty is found in his closing work of cleansing humanity! Even if this is allegorical, why did God inspire the example using metaphors of violence and war and painful slaughter?
What puzzles me even more is how we can sit here, like little schizophrenics and debate this stuff ... argue and fight with words like we are in a battle? It is beyond me. It makes no sense. Unless, we take another long hard look, and are willing to stop fighting with words long enough to try and figure out the God we worship, the love he has, and how there is room for both peace and war, for fighting and standing down from fighting.
Ecclesiastes says there is a time for war and a time for peace. A time to break down and a time to build again. War and death are part of the cycles of our human and spiritual experience. Our Christian experience is even termed in metaphors of war ... putting on the suit of armor and carrying the sword of the spirit. Clearly, God inspires our work as a warrior.
The reason that I continue to be a conscientious objector is not because I wish not to seek justice through severe penalties, even the death penalty ... but because I don't frankly know for sure what God wants me to do. While I am coming to terms with early Christianity and examining the Orthodox church as it is today in the 21st century ... I am still trying hard to wade through these other confusing messages.
I frankly find that judging the pacifists or warriors among us is not a good thing to do until we can concretely reconcile this seeming dichotomy of schizophrenia on the part of our God.
Jim W.
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Channel C Decides to Stay Open !
by Amazing1914 inccadmin posted a new thread today stating that the cc site will stay open.
it appears that everyone was able to work out some differences and put christian friendship ahead of partisan views and attitudes.
this is nice to see, and speaks well of everyone involved.
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Amazing1914
Hi IW, Garybuss, and Neonmadman,
This response is to all of you, but is built off of IW's post for convenience.
I opened a new account here just to post on your thread. Won't be staying long. ... Believe it or not I'm glad Ros decided to keep Channel C going.
Thanks. I have been banging my head on the table trying to figure out who IW might me. So, if you wish, e-mail me at [email protected]. Yes, I am pleased she kept it open.But as you can see by the posts on this thread Channel C does not have what one would call an inviting C hristian reputation. ... Ironically, after backstabbing one another the Channel C Christians decide that to forgive and move on would show the world their Christian love. lol Sorry to disappoint them but forgiving and moving on is a human trait, shown many times by the good people on this board by the way, and does not in itself prove one a good Christian or Channel C a good Christian board.
I agree that forgiveness is not a trait unique to Christians. But, it is a trait that a Christian should at least be practicing, if one is going to be true to Christ. I can't speak to the inviting aspect, because the forum is not an open forum, but one confined to those the board own believes will contribute to the focus on Bible discussion. As for Neonmadman, I cannot say why one person from the same church would be selected, but he would not be. I guess it would be good to apply again, and explain this if he had not done so already. Otherwise, I can't speak to what Ros had in mind by rejecting any person under these circumstances.She is also a member of the JWD forum, and can see how some have acted. For example, one poster who was kicked off of JWD and sent to another competing forum for his neo-nazi propaganda would not be allowed on CC. In making selections, she uses her best judgment. I have known Ros for over 13 years, so I do trust her style.
Channel C misses the mark on a grand scale! They exclude most of those who are hurting or are in the greatest need while including the close community of exJW Christian greats and the few who can serve as sounding boards for their posts. (yeah, I know, being a little unfair but not much)
Ros had other forums designed for those hurting and needing emotional and spiritual support. It worked well for a long time, but was closed down because those needing help reduced in numbers, while those interested in secular topics increased. So, she created a forum for secular debate. I was a member of both of those forums. They worked for a time, but are now closed. Channel C was never intended to be a healing station, but more of an expert or serious and experienced student of the Bible. It was intended to function on a different level. Like anything else, Channel C is not perfect, and none of its participants are either. So, it was bound to have problems eventually. I have been a member since the beginning, and I never saw any such difficulties. I have been there for a few years. The recent problems, in my mind, were a tempest in a teapot - especially compared to the flame wars we have had here, or elsewhere. H20 had the best all-time wars.
Ros asked you to help atheists. Atheists on her board? lol How many are there? 1 or 2 who are allowed to post? The atheists and agnostics are here Jim. Help hurting Christians here. The righteous have no need of repentance, remember?
She asked the board in general a set of questions as to how an ex-JW Christian might be constructive in helping an ex-JW atheist. She was wondering how we might find a way to develop common ground and maybe help prevent atheist as a consequence of leaving the Watchtower. I agree that it would have been useful to have some atheists, or at least come Christians who had walked the atheist road. But, there is too great a risk that the religious would debate the atheist rather than listen and learn. And, some atheists are as bad as fundy Christians, and can get as preachy, and try to promote propaganda rather than discuss topics.
I took up the call because I felt that I had an angle that might be useful and help kick off a constructive discussion. Channel C is not about being righteous, but about a dedicated focus. It is a specialty forum. However, it also contains some individuals, who although are ex-JWs, are fundamentalists and have a hard time coping with a broad view. So, they saw my approach as a threat to their narrow view. However, several supported my approach, and there was some constructive discussion. But, by and large, many saw me as promoting evolution and felt obligated to debate me on it, rather than understand the concept I tried to convey at the outset. But, again, CC is not about being an emotional support forum, but more about scholastics and academics.
Your evolution posts would have gone over much better here, Jim. At Channel C some put hot coals under your feet just for bringing the subject up. Nope, no closed minds over there. Nope, just a bunch of loving and inclusive Christians who love God and brother to pieces, literally.
I agree that I could have gotten much better play out of my evolution postings on JWD. My Christian background is not threatened by it. I can take evolution or leave it. But not all Christians can. Most Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics can accept evolution and engage in such a discussion easily. But, many in the Protestant Evangelical camp, and others that attract ex-JWs have great difficulty. Yes, in my opinion, some minds are closed. This mentality, in my opinion, resulted in some misreading my postings.Carl Olaf Jonnson took up debating me over Carbon14 dating. he did a good job finding references, and I read every one of them. But as good as he is in researching information, I felt that he misunderstands the debate in scientific circles. As a result, I believe he misapplied statements by scientists in the field who use C-14, but also point out its difficulties. I worked almost 20 years in radiology in research, testing, and applied engineering. So, the topic was easier for me. But, I was unable to reason with Carl in the end. And, unfortunately, because some of the more fundamentalists on CC felt threatened by the implications of C-14 dating (which proves humans have been here thousands of years longer than the date for Adam's creation) they sided with Carl, who among ex-JWs has a more accepted academic reputation than do I. Carl's work on the "Gentile Times Reconsidered" is of superior quality, and a work that I could not have matched. However, Carl was out of his field in C-14 discussions, but his credibility overshadowed good science.
My post titled "Dichotomy of a Schizophrenic God" really caused a stir, and may have been responsible as a catalyst in getting the disagreements going. I was called a blasphemer, and promoting abominations, and evil. I was frankly shocked. Because the word "Dichotomy" was the tip off as to the intent of my post. Anyone as academically strong as many on that forum should have immediately known the focus of my post. But somehow, it was largely misinterpreted by the most scholarly among them. This suggested to me that they felt threatened and/or did not read my post. My argument was not that God was crazy, but if one accepts that pacifism is a required ingredient in the Christian character, then God would have to be crazy. The post was written in a thought-provoking style to expose' pacifistic views in a back- handed way as being out of step with God. Instead, the academics accused me of not writing what I mean, and not meaning what I write, and being unclear, etc. They simply did not want to deal with the hard reality of what I presented.
Now that I am thinking of it, I will repost my "Schizophrenic" post here on JWD and see what kind of response it gets. That would be an interesting test.
All in all, IW Gary, and Neon, I understand and agree that your criticism have some good merit. I hope that my explanation has at least mitigated some of the concern, and establish the limited focus of CC, but also gave honest admission of some of the weaknesses.
Thanks for your comments,
Jim W.
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Channel C Decides to Stay Open !
by Amazing1914 inccadmin posted a new thread today stating that the cc site will stay open.
it appears that everyone was able to work out some differences and put christian friendship ahead of partisan views and attitudes.
this is nice to see, and speaks well of everyone involved.
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Amazing1914
Hi Pole,
More preaching to the carefully selected choir then.
On the contrary, there is a wide variety of views and beliefs on CC. The biggest thing about the advanced selection, is that the board owner prevents problem people from starting trouble in the first place.
There is no preaching permitted as such, but rather presentation of views, which may include some beliefs. I caused some difficulty with some of my comments. Well, it's better to say that some posters strongly reacted to my style. But, what else is new. So, CC is not a 'yes man' discussion board or choir. Rather, its mission is focused on Christian thinking, teaching, and history. So, it is going to be naturally more narrow in scope than say, JWD. This is why I enjoy both board.
Jim W.
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Channel C Decides to Stay Open !
by Amazing1914 inccadmin posted a new thread today stating that the cc site will stay open.
it appears that everyone was able to work out some differences and put christian friendship ahead of partisan views and attitudes.
this is nice to see, and speaks well of everyone involved.
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Amazing1914
CCAdmin posted a new thread today stating that the CC site will stay open. It appears that everyone was able to work out some differences and put Christian friendship ahead of partisan views and attitudes. This is nice to see, and speaks well of everyone involved.
Jim W.