Posts by CeriseRose

33

What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?

by Bubbamar in

in my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.

however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.

so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.

CeriseRose

Ok im confused.you were d,fed for Adultery right? If so,why is everyone condemning the D,fed action! If ive got it wrong i apologize.I actually agree with disfellowshipping if People are personally hurt bad in what ever way.But not for consensual relationships between 2 free parties. I've noticed this before,everyone is so quick to condemn the Jw,s they forget any innocent,hurt parties.

I think maybe if you read the responses through you'd be less confused. The subject is her Mom asking for their relationship to change, but not being willing to meet even part way (i.e. she will continue to shun her daughter). The question back to Mom was "What does that mean, it sounds like you want me (and sis) to change but you won't. That doesn't make sense, can you clarify?"

What Mom clarified with was a whole lot of stuff around the Bible and essentially saying "don't slam my beliefs, but your beliefs suck (even though she apparently has no idea what those beliefs are) and can't promise you what my beliefs can so why don't you come back like a good girl and do what you know you're supposed to and then we can have a happy relationship again."

Mom doesn't want a better relationship based on current reality, she wants things to go back to how they were. Understandable, but not very realistic if she's really listening to her daughter. I think most people here are slamming the "typical" JW response of hearing only what they want to, not the JWs themselves. I could be reading it wrong, though.

As for your agreeing with disfellowshipping, well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I venture to guess that you're not the victim of it, though...I thought it was reasonable too, until I disassociated under NO cloud or disfellowshipping offense and am now treated like persona non grata by ex-friends and family. When I left I still believed in all the JW doctrine, and simply wanted to be left alone to heal emotionally, something I couldn't do as a JW. I was an innocent and very hurt party, and made my choice to leave with the duress of never seeing my remaining family again. Believe me, that decision wasn't made lightly. My point is, however, that I was no more a danger to their spirtuality than a member of the GB. Oh wait...

The only reason (and I mean the ONLY reason) the disfellowshipping rules are in place today is for the benefit of the WTS...because if JWs "in" found out what those who get "out" know, they'd lose their cult-control. They don't care what relationships they ruin in the process. My 2 cents.

33

What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?

by Bubbamar in

in my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.

however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.

so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.

CeriseRose

First of all, I'm sorry you have to go through this stressful situation. *hugs* This is very reminiscent of my recent letters back and forth with my JW sister. The crux of our disagreement was my 'betrayal' of her, and how the fact that I'm doing well now (mentally, emotionally, physically) doesn't negate my past actions (disassociating), but that I was to erase her years of abusive and controlling behaviour toward me, because she put on the "Christian personality."

A couple of things:

1. I pointed out her double standard and asked her if she really thought that what she had said was reasonable. I also pointed out (at least in this case) that her behaviour hadn't stopped at baptism, but had continued, albeit much less in quantity, until as recent as a year ago -- and I named a specific incident of her uncontrolled anger.

Your Mom seems to have a similar double standard...you and your sis need to change and get over things and put things behind you, but she's not going to change in her dealings with you. HUH?

2. I told my sister that I deliberately left religion and God out of my dealings with her because I knew that the WTS said that a "Christian in good standing" should not be talking to a disfellowshipped/disassociated person about beliefs or scripture. I also told my sister that if she wanted to open that door, then she should expect to be hearing all sorts of things from me; but out of respect for her and her cherished beliefs I stayed off that subject.

If you feel confrontational you can bring something like this up. My sister responded by voice mail and I deleted it before listening to it all, as she wasn't following my "rules" (see point number 4). In my case, I had nothing else to lose...my sister needed to give her head a good shake and I gave her a little help. ;)

3. I also told my sister that my relationship, in whatever form it took, with God, was between God and myself and that it was none of her business to be involved in that, or to comment on it. I again reminded her that she was not to be talking religion with me, based on the rules she was living by (i.e. if she believed she was directed to shun me, she should also be following the direction not to talk religion with me).

Of course, it's gotten back to me that based on this comment, I'm now labelled an apostate. I told her that the WTS wasn't God. Who knew?

4. Finally, I told my sister my boundaries. She may be shunning me, based on rules given to her by the WTS, but I told her exactly what I would and wouldn't allow in my minimal dealings with her. Included were things like not berating me, expecting any more apologies for my decisions which have caused her hurt, allowing her to vent/dump her emotional baggage on me and walking away, and the like. I told her that until she could speak to me in a civilized and polite manner, that she need not speak to me. I reminded her that we all make choices in life, and these choices may affect other people. I reminded her that many JWs don't shun to the same degree she is, nor do they shun before they *have* to, which she did. I explained that those were her choices and that they affected and hurt me and I wasn't demanding an apology, as she kept doing from me over my decision to leave.

I think it was GaryBuss (I'm so bad with names and scrolling down doesn't get me there) that said shun them back. Just because they're shunning you, doesn't mean you have to play by those rules. I try to think of it this way: If this were an acquaintance what would my expectation be? Or if they were a friend? Just because they're family doesn't mean they have special leeway to treat you like garbage. In my case, I took a hard look at the relationship and decided that what I was compromising myself to keep wasn't worth the level of compromise I had to make. To remain in my sister's "good graces while she shunned me" was costing me more self-respect than she deserved to ask for. So I put my proverbial foot down.

I was loving, kind, and firm. I made comment on many of her good qualities, because she is my sister, I love her, and she's under the control of a cult...I don't want her to view me as the enemy, because some day she may need me to be there for her. However, I did what I needed to do to set the parameters for our relationship. If she can't live with that, then again that's her choice, not the disfellowshipping, not the religion, but HERS. I made that clear as well.

I hope it works out with you and your Mom. It's really frustrating, especially when they spout scripture as if you haven't heard it all before.

*hugs*

6

Same sex marriage and religion

by Jahna in

jw
friends

from cbc.ca news ?many of the groups opposed to same-sex marriage are concerned about their freedom of religion, fearing ministers from churches opposed to gay marriage would be forced to perform same-sex ceremonies.

the tird question on the reference is meant to deal with their concerns.?

the issue of same sex marriages are being debated in canada?s top court starting today.

CeriseRose

I hear what you're saying...in terms of the cleric A situation you outline, I suspect that what will happen is that those who choose not to perform same-sex marriages will always be 'busy' when approached. Both sides will know what's going on, but there will be no legal implication (a moral one, sure), and no 'proof' of breaking the Charter.

Of course, I suspect that there will be plenty of other church leaders who will embrace it and perform same-sex marriages. Why be married by someone performing under duress? And I can imagine that the homosexual population has just as many people uninterested in religion as the heterosexual population...this would free up the justices of the peace to perform ceremonies for those uninterested in the religious type.

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out...

Cerise of the Lives in Vancouver Class (2nd largest gay community in North America)

35

How Many People Are Less Stressed Since Leaving The Witnesses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

do you feel better----emotionally and mentally since stopping meetings and living under the rules of the witnesses?

i've heard reports of better physical and mental health since persons have left the organization.

CeriseRose

Yes and no. I had depression before the JWs. I lost my parents while a JW. So antidepressants were not unknown to me.

However, having said that, I tried to go off anti-deps several times in the last few years...and was never able to until I left the JWs (left in Feb, came off meds in May, and we'll see how I do in the next anniversary season -- November). However, I made it through Dad's birthday time of year with NO problems while off meds. I count that a HUGE thing.

As for stress in general, right now my stress is high. However, it's mostly good stress. Getting married, packing up and selling my apartment, emigrating to the US, finishing university courses before I leave...it's a hassle for timing, a lot of unknown timing, and a lot of changing life circumstances. So the stress isn't any less, but the way I'm dealing with it is, even off meds.

Plus not having to squeeze in a bzillion meetings a week and field service (or deal with people questioning why I'm not) has certainly eased the feeling of pressure. When I fell apart after my parents died, I can say that a big factor was the pace of life before...trying to keep up with the JW lifestyle.

I tried to explain to my sister that my leaving was a decision I had to make for my health and sanity. Because I really would have gone insane if I'd stayed in and tried to cope JW-style. Of course, she doesn't agree.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot about the migraines. I used to have many migraines a month, lasting days. Was on prescription meds. When I left, and in the months since leaving, they've dropped off dramatically. They used to only be managed by prescription medication...now I can deflect them with OTC stuff...in the rare times I get them anymore.

And I think Blondie's comment is bang-on...it is like leaving an abusive relationship.

29

Thar she blows.............Mt. St. Helens is erupting again

by Mulan in

i just turned on the tv while i eat my breakfast (late one) and two minutes ago, the mountain began a new eruption.

so far it looks like an enormous cloud.

time will tell what is in there.

CeriseRose

My fiancé lives about 50 miles west of it, and is heading back home today (leaving in a few minutes). Apparently there was a bit of ash from last week's blow but it quickly dissipated from his area.

Last news I heard has the plume about 10,000 feet like the one last week, but no magma/lava [yet].

As for Sumas/Chilliwack I wouldn't sweat it too much...it seems the air current sends stuff east/northeast from the mountain...it would take a HUGE eruption for it to do what it did in '80 and the experts are basically saying the mountain is a whole different ball game from last time: 1,000 ft shorter, a crater instead of the regular mountaintop, etc.

And on the lighter side of volcanos (eeep!) I got this from a friend.

FUN FACTS ABOUT VOLCANOES

* Volcanoes are like mountains... but with a gooey center!

* What a volcano kills most people with is its lava... or is it its smoke. Well, whatever it is, just stay the hell away from whatever comes out of a volcano.

* Lava is molten rock. You have to heat rock pretty high to melt it. Like, my oven can get pretty hot, but I still couldn't melt a rock... and I touched the rock that wasn't melted as was like, "Ow!" That's hot!

* Where lava comes from within the earth. If you dig a lot, after getting through the dirt, you'll hit hot magma. And then China.

* If you dig a hole that flows magma into China, the Chinese will get angry. Stupid Commies.

* Why is it so hot in the earth as to melt rock? I have no idea. Seems like someone must be doing something crazy down there. We better find out who... or what!

* Many islands have volcanoes. This is much more dramatic because then you can't just drive away from the slowly moving magma.

* Those island volcanoes are bigger than they look because much of them is under water. If I were them, I'd go to Mount Everest and be like, "Bitch, you ain't the tallest mountain! You just the tallest thing that don't happen to be partially under water, foo'!"

* To stop a volcano, throw a virgin in it. Sluts only make it angrier.

* You can also use up a volcano's lava supply by causing a bunch of volcanoes around it to go off. Ha!

* You could also try throwing some ice in it. Wouldn't hurt.

* If the volcano you see is hollowed out, look out for evil geniuses.

* If you see a lava flow coming towards you, jump! Maybe it will cool to regular harmless rock before you hit the ground.

* In a fight between a volcano and Aquaman, the results of the fight wouldn't be known until ten thousand years later when Aquaman's remains are unearthed from the rock.

* If you think you see an erupting volcano, call the police. Someone should know about it.

* Whatever you do, don?t let your kids play on a volcano?s edge? unless it has railing.

* The site of Yellowstone National Park was once a giant volcano. If that ever goes off again, expect park services to ask for more money. They?re always asking for more money

32

Am I the only one who didn't know this?

by Mulan in

i was watching jeopardy in the kitchen, while cooking a little while ago, and found out that norah jones' father is ravi shankar.

i had never heard that before.

interesting.

CeriseRose

20 years ago when I was in high school, someone had to have it explained to them that Paul McCartney was in a band before "Wings." They hadn't heard. (Apparently some people do live under rocks. hehe)

So Ravi, who wasn't a regular member, is easy to 'lose.'

13

The process of recovery

by onacruse in

jw
friends

i checked the "best of..." forum, and didn't see this as a specific link.

there's a list of the typical psychological steps that a person usually goes through in the course of recovering from a traumatic experience: something like- shock, denial, anger, compromise, resolution.

i'd like to see that info again, because, even though i know that i've gone very far into the 'resolution' stage of my life, nevertheless, i find, at times, i revert to the 'anger' stage, and wonder to myself: "where in the heck did that come from?".

CeriseRose

I was also told by my grief counsellor that those 5 stages are fluid -- they don't have specific beginnings or ends. So you can fluctuate back and forth within a couple before you're done with them.

This is why, 3 years after my parents have died, that occasionally the oddest things will trigger me and I'll flip into a stage I thought was done.

20

For Atheists only

by Kaethra in

jw
friends

it's not for atheists only...i just hoped i'd get their attention.

my oldest brother is about 10 years older than me.

he married a girl that i adored.

CeriseRose

{{{hugs}}}

That's a really hard situation. I can tell you in my experience with dealing with persons with cancer (in my case, my parents died 6 months apart both from cancer) the two lessons I learned.

1. The person who is ill sets the tone for how others should deal with them. And that changes from hour to hour, day by day. Take your cues from them.

2. There is really nothing *to* be said, other than what you feel in your heart you want to say. I would caution you to pick your moments (don't be too heavy and sentimental if they're not dealing well at the moment you want to say it), but if you want to tell her that you think it stinks that this is her prognosis, or that you're sad it happened to a nice person like her, or that you'll look out for your brother/nieces/nephews, or anything of the sort, then do it. And if she doesn't want to talk about it, switch to something else.

What I found with my Mom and Dad is that they didn't want to 'talk' about the disease, because it was always laying there between us all when we talked anyway. Common interests, current events, 'normal' life were things that they wanted to focus on.

I don't know how many opportunities you'll have with your SIL...and there were people like that in my parents' lives too. If you don't think you'll have an opportune moment to say things you want to, write them in a card. Then you don't have to put her in a position of 'dealing' when she's not able, and you can give your time and thought to what you want to say.

What to say...well pretty much anything you want, really. If she has her own faith, you probably don't need to touch on it if she has a hope. If you have a different idea of what happens after death, don't bring it into the picture; chances are it won't comfort her, and it could become contentious.

I hope you find some peace for yourself in all this, and although it's not a good prognosis, that your family bears up well in the coming time. {{{hugs}}}

32

Am I the only one who didn't know this?

by Mulan in

i was watching jeopardy in the kitchen, while cooking a little while ago, and found out that norah jones' father is ravi shankar.

i had never heard that before.

interesting.

CeriseRose

Well if you'd asked it last week Mulan, I'd have said no. As it happens, my fiancé told me about Norah and Ravi just last weekend. Prior to that I hadn't a clue.

Ravi Shankar is the guru that the Beatles (60's rock group, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, George Harrison and Ringo Star) hooked up with for spiritual enlightenment. In their later recordings if you hear a sitar or similar east Indian music, chances are Ravi's playing or had some influence.

Edited: I did not know that Princess was Mulan's daughter. Wow.

25

Do born-agains dominate EX-JW's?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

do a quick look on the web and you will find most ex-jw or anti-jw sites are made by so called born again christians.

i remember from being a witness that the general view of apostaes was that they had become born again christians.this was probably because so many actually do.

is this having a negative effect or reducing the chances of witness reading information that may help them?

CeriseRose

Okay then Sleepy, since I'm *obviously* reading way too much into it, and anything I say is discounted because it's not fitting your agenda/purpose, I'll give you the short answer.

No. Born-agains do not dominate Ex-JWs.

In the spirit of how you want that assessed, I have absolutely no proof or research to back it up, but I know it as fact. Oh, and anything you say in disagreement or of a varying opinion is null and void.