Okay, first of all, I brought the topic up as a discussion point, not that *I* in particular had a problem with the mix of people on the board. I thought I made it clear at the beginning when I carefully wrote and posted this:
"I'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: In NO WAY am I meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue ANYONE. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share them within the terms of the board. I also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
I believe that being a JW is like that. It is a cult; we can all be aware of what makes up a cult, how it operates, some of the repurcussions, etc. But unless you've *been* in a cult, it's very hard to 'relate' to it on a deeply personal level. Now that's not to say that peripheral knowledge that non-JWs can provide doesn't have value or benefit, especially for those who've been in the cult. I think it's important for transition that there are people in a place like this that have an "intimate knowledge" of the workings but never were "in": they provide a link between the old and new life that can be a great reality check."
An example: I'm not a parent, but I can feel sympathy for a parent who loses a child. I can feel empathy for the devastation, I can feel empathy in the grief, the feeling of loss, because of my own experiences with death and I can make comment to those things in relation to others' loss. I hope the person I'm commisserating with finds value in what I contribute, and finds support in my human compassion and my shoulder an "okay fit" to cry on if need be. But the bottom line is, I don't KNOW what it's like to lose a child. I have not had that experience, cannot be intimately acquainted with it. That doesn't make my value any less, or my contribution to that person any less.
Now that being reiteratied, JGNAT, you are a definite asset to this board! You have a wealth of knowledge and a perspective that not many have. Did you know that I didn't even KNOW that you were a non-JW until you mentioned it to me in chat? I personally can't tell the difference unless someone says something. There are ex-JWs here with more Bible knowledge than I had as a JW, more non-JWs with their head on straighter than I've had mine in my whole life, which btw, includes being all 3 of those types. I have learned TONS from my experience here, and very rarely feel that any poster doesn't contribute SOMETHING. It was only because I feel so comfortable in the balance of the board that I would even dream of bringing up a topic like this, because it can be taken so very wrongly.
I don't particularly like labels, which I've said before, and so when *I* read a post and follow a thread I don't stop and consider "Is this person still in? Is this person out? Has this person ever been in at all?" and then assess them and their comments based on that. I read a thread and compare the advice or information compared to my own situation, to my own knowledge base, and my own thinking and see if there's something to be learned. I might wonder where they're 'at' simply so I can understand where they're coming from, but by and large, it's not my first thought nor does it limit me from reading. I think it may limit others and that's what I was trying to explore. (It could be taken the other way and a non-JW reading a post by a JW still in and believing could completely devalue the JW because of the wonky beliefs that the non-JW can't relate to. But what I see mostly is ex-JWs saying to non-JWs "you don't KNOW" and then discrediting them and their information, which is why I used that example.)
I was not directing this post to any one of the specific groups (JW, ex-JW, non-JW) and wagging a finger, nor was I doing so at any one poster. Even if that were my (very malicious) intent, if I had a problem with someone here I'd simply say it, or PM them. It's not my way to try to make a point against one person on a global thread; I'd hoped I'd been here long enough for that to be evident. I know I'm not a "regular" like most of you, and maybe you all still feel suspicious at my motives. I just don't know.
The reason I brought this topic up, is because I've seen this happening here and other boards; people being discredited for their "label" or "status" (and that can be whatever is against the majority of that thread) and their information or even the person denegrated because they aren't in the majority at that moment. While I can see how *being* a JW, *being* an ex-JW, or *being* a non-JW can be completely different perspectives, instead of embracing the learning possible from different perspectives, what I sometimes see is a resistance to that.
I was wondering if that resistance was a specific JW/ex-JW thing or a human nature thing. I wanted comments on that.
Please, no one need take offense: I am not meaning this to be an us/them thing. That is the LAST thing intended. I wanted to open the dialogue so maybe everyone would end up empowered or gaining more from their own experience here. Whatever their history.
CeriseRose
JoinedPosts by CeriseRose
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
"You can't start to learn until you acknowledge that there are things you don't know."
Fe203Girl, I think you're bang on with this. I just wonder if maybe some people aren't ready to acknowledge that and maybe that's where the tension comes from. I mean, if your life and life understanding is all upside down, maybe it's too much to hear things you don't know.
And in case that was confusing, what I mean is, when I was first out, I couldn't fathom not believing in God. Then when I learned how off the Borg's teachings are, I couldn't trust anything about religion. I stayed away from religious/biblical topics like the plague. Now I'm in kind of a middle ground with it. I'm not afraid that I'll be sucked in blindly, and can see various sides to different concepts.
But until I was willing to acknowledge I didn't have all the answers (like JWs believe), I couldn't admit I didn't have all the answers. If you follow. -
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
Under74 I didn't think you were and certainly wasn't taking offense! :)
I think it's just varying degrees of resolution within ourselves and everyone's in a different place with it. I posted what I did so you'd get the perspective of the other shoe. Or the other foot. Or something.
I think I need more coffee. !
Anyway, sometimes it's only by saying this stuff "out loud" that it can be acknowledged and then settled. -
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
I guess the resentment you feel toward converts is kind of like the flip side of the envy I used to feel as a JW of those who "were lucky enough" to be raised as a JW, in a family full of JWs. "They" had the history, the long lineage, the family ties. "They" didn't have to juggle worldly(TM) family and holidays, or divided loyalties and the constant struggle of being an "orphan" in the truth(TM). My sister (still a JW) married into such a family...in great part I could make the step to completely break from JWs because I knew that she'd stay in but she'd have some family for support still.
Of course, now that I'm out, I think wow, I have family still to go to, who aren't judgmental and don't care that I *was* a JW. I also think that my transition out has been a LOT easier than someone's who was raised in...I think that I can "fall back" to my "normal" self whereas someone raised in has to completely redefine and usually without huge amounts of emotional or mental support. It's not an easy road for anyone, but those who don't have a paradigm of life as a non-JW are essentially starting from scratch.
I think people that converted (like me! and yes, there was a choice, but for a variety of reasons, people do make that choice willingly...it's just by the time they find out what's really going on, there's emotional involvement just like with anyone, raised in or not...at least that's my experience) can relate to both sides of the coin. But a non-JW talking to a born-in JW must be like an earthling talking to a martian in terms of relation-ability! -
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
I'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: In NO WAY am I meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue ANYONE. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board. I also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
So that being said: I am just curious on other people's "take" on this, as I've seen it not only on this board but others.
"You were never a JW so you can't understand."
"I know (live with/was married to) a JW (etc.) and this is how it is."
I was just reading a thread where one poster made comment on the fact that another poster had never been a JW. I'm not getting into that, but it sparked a thought in my mind.
Personally, I believe that no matter how well informed a person is about something, that in most cases having the experience themself is the ONLY way to truly "know." On a different message board there were a few non-JWs who were very opinionated about things and truly believed they "knew" as well as a JW or ex-JW about the religion.
Unrelated example: I watched my parents pass away; sat in the room and watched them breathe their last, after sitting for hour upon hour as they declined. Now I know that most people have experienced someone dying in their life, even someone close. I had, and figured I "got" the whole thing. But that specific experience of being there while they died is quite unique, like nothing I'd ever experienced, and truly, don't believe that is something that can ever be fully described so someone could truly understand that experience without having gone through it themself.
I believe that being a JW is like that. It is a cult; we can all be aware of what makes up a cult, how it operates, some of the repurcussions, etc. But unless you've *been* in a cult, it's very hard to 'relate' to it on a deeply personal level. Now that's not to say that peripheral knowledge that non-JWs can provide doesn't have value or benefit, especially for those who've been in the cult. I think it's important for transition that there are people in a place like this that have an "intimate knowledge" of the workings but never were "in": they provide a link between the old and new life that can be a great reality check.
However, sometimes it seems that people here resent or dislike the opinions of those who weren't in. Sometimes, it seems, even to me, that whose who weren't a JW cannot really relate in a constructive way. I sense a certain amount of frustration from some, which comes out in their posts.
There is similar tone of frustration between JWs "in" and those who've left, in varying degrees.
Does anyone else see this happening? Is there a way to ever be past that? I mean, for those of us who were JWs, we were all taught to be exclusionary and are all in varying degrees of "sorting ourselves out" from that. Or is this all a long-lasting mark that will always be there.
Or is it just plain old human nature, the subject matter notwithstanding, one of experience vs non-experience?
I welcome your comments, from everyone. -
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Why do many religious people dislike non-religious people?
by Elsewhere ini've noticed that usually when someone who is very religious finds out that i am an atheist, they become very agitated even though i never actually said anything negative about their religion.. are they embarrassed?.
do they think i am condemning them?.
do they see me as a threat?.
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CeriseRose
Well, in the scenario you're describing, it's probably less "dislike" and more that they have no way to relate to it, and could be preparing for a huge disagreement. Religion or lack thereof is an age-old "hot topic" and is often such a source of controversy. That could be the threat.
It's kind of like telling someone you're a creationist when everyone around you is an evolutionist. Inevitably someone is going to say something that could spark a disagreement, so everyone is on tenterhooks.
It's either that or you're just plain scary. :P (couldn't resist)
What I'd like to know is why each side of the coin (religious or no) feel the need to "share" their beliefs. (Of course, being an ex-JW, it's a highly hypocritical thing of me to ask, seeing as I did my share of sharing. DOH!) Now, I know that not everyone does, but I think that's always a factor when you're talking these subjects that someone, even the most open minded, will ask "why don't you," or "why do you" and in the ensuing "information sharing" opinions become fact and emotions start running high. -
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CeriseRose
Actually it was a naturopath who told me, but I do agree that there are many JWs who seem to have all the answers regarding health matters.
Mind you, so my boss also thinks she does and she's not a JW. Maybe it's just women. ;) LOL
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CeriseRose
Wow. Interestingly enough I was told to take "white willow bark" tincture for my ovarian cysts to relieve the pain...aspirin and ibuprofen (even in prescription strengths) didn't touch the pain. The tincture did.
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The NEED for Acknowledgement and Validation..what do you think?
by LyinEyes ini was flipping thru the channels a few minutes ago and the oprah show was on with an interview with tatum o'neal .
i havent watched all of the show but from what i can get from it so far,,,,,,tatum has a bad relationship with her father , she has written a book about it all.
she and oprah were talking about what could make her have peace with her father and so on .
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CeriseRose
I agree that it's very natural to need that...especially in a situation where you're being disfellowshipped or have left. The place you need to "vindicate" yourself and "set matters straight" is no longer open to you to do so.
For myself, I've been "out" for a few months, I'm settled within myself, my life. Why does it hurt that they label me apostate? Why does it hurt that all I ever asked for is understanding and they gave none? These people mean nothing to me anymore, not on any real level. But I want them to acknowledge their part, their failure to support me, their inability to show the love they said they would. I don't think I will feel validated until I have those words, those expressions, from those who abused my trust and my faith.
And there are many who have had it much worse than me, who've lost more, who've bled more, who've suffered more physical and emotional pain at the hands of their abusers...and they go unacknowledged and unvalidated too. Cast aside and not just forgotten, but villified after the fact.
That's why I think places like this are so important. Not only the connection, but the telling and re-telling of our stories...and to hear from someone that we're okay and good.
Acknowledging that we need that makes us strong. {{{{HUGS}}}}
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Are JWs "Approval Whores"?
by Scully induring a quiet moment at work the other night, i picked up a back issue of o magazine, one of the current quintessentially authoritative journalistic voices of the modern north american woman.
it was the december 2003 issue, and i was intrigued by the title of the article: "the halo effect" which promised to examine the condition of 'being too good' for one's own good.
the preamble contained the phrase "self-sacrificing" and i was immediately zapped by that standard jw buzz-word and the article's suggestion that being "self-sacrificing" is not all it's cracked up to be.. you can read the article here: stop seeking approval.
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CeriseRose
Thanks for posting this. There are things in it that I'm still working on (they were pre-JW and only got exacerbated by being a JW) and this is a great 'tool' for me.
Two thumbs up!