No worries rebelfighter. It's not like my ego is caught up in the rating system. ;) And I'm sure my fat fingers have downvoted others while scrolling on my phone.
dubstepped
JoinedPosts by dubstepped
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9
JW's are Egomaniacs and the Org is an Ego machine
by freemindfade ini've been thinking a lot lately about ego vs self.
i have also been trying to differentiate freudian model of ego, super & id, but more of a ego=false self vs soul=true self.
while there are many ego institutions out there, the witness reality buries its victims in a avalanche of ego.
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and Moses came down the mountain on his....DUCATI
by snare&racket inworst day in the last ten years, was the day i hit 0.00 with one and a half years of university to go.
nobody to turn to, nobody to ask for help.
i was 32 and as an ex jw had two family members in contact with me.
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dubstepped
Congrats! What a cool story. -
9
JW's are Egomaniacs and the Org is an Ego machine
by freemindfade ini've been thinking a lot lately about ego vs self.
i have also been trying to differentiate freudian model of ego, super & id, but more of a ego=false self vs soul=true self.
while there are many ego institutions out there, the witness reality buries its victims in a avalanche of ego.
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dubstepped
A New Earth by Tolle really opened my eyes to this. As I've made changes to be more in line with my true self I've watched it become a threat to the ego of others and the distance starts because my ego no longer needs to be fed by or to feed theirs. A big part of that book is to really understand how we're all so interconnected as human beings. It is hard to reconcile something like that when your whole live revolves around being different from the world around you (all ego). I used to be so shut off from everyone else, so alone, so miserable, depressed, judgemental, and ego driven. Breaking free from that has made me truly happy, but those that knew in my ego phase don't know me anymore. -
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
Hi Jan,
First, all parents lie to their kids on some level. Whether it's telling them that eating veggies will make them like their favorite superhero, avoiding discussing what is really going on in the family to kids that they think can't handle it by manipulation, or something else. Now, it can obviously go to the extreme like you mentioned with adults that groom children for perverted reasons. There are levels, and much depends on the intent, once again so much boils down to that. Sometimes lies protect kids, sometimes they motivate them to do something for their own good that otherwise they wouldn't do, like eating something healthy. Sometimes they deliberately hurt kids and are nefarious, like the pervert you alluded to. In the end, few relationships are all good or all bad. On a show that I listen to people often relate their past abuse and the horrors of it, but on the flip side a question is asked about positive dealings with their abuser, and most have plenty to list. Even in the midst of horrible abuses the victim often walks away conflicted on some level, because the fact that there's both positive and negative experiences is what really makes abuse so abusive. If a person was pure evil alone they could be written off more easily.
From the outside looking in it would be easy to vilify everything JW's stand for, much the same as people that look at so and so that was caught abusing their child look and only see a horrible parent or adult. And I'm not saying that the organization, or that abusive parent, hasn't done horrible things. But there were good things that those in the organization experienced. And none of us make it through life unscathed. Whether it be parents, coworkers, friends, strangers, organizations, etc., all of us get abused in some way.
For some the intent of everything JW is evil. For others it is all beautiful reflections of the attributes of Jehovah God as they see it. For me, it is in between. Some really good stuff, some really bad and damaging stuff, and some things in between. I try to choose to see all sides of it.
And if you start taking kids away from narcissistic parents that are overly controlling, good luck raising all of those kids, lol. They might then rise up and point at all of the lax parents that let kids do whatever they want at the other end of the spectrum and you can take all of their kids away too. In the end, even the controlling narcissist can have good intent. Intent isn't always borne out in the results that come from it. My parents meant well and did a number on me. I was very resentful of that and still harbor some, but I try to temper it with intent as far as I know it.
You see the organization as trying to hurt their kids through manipulative tactics. I see them as trying too hard to protect their kids and wanting them to be good enough for salvation that they're willing to do whatever they can to push them that way as they see it. I understand that isn't always a popular view among people that have been hurt tremendously (as have I) by this organization. It is easy just to look at them as dysfunctional parents that should be discarded, as that's how they view their own children, as objects to be discarded. I hope that I'm getting away from that way of thinking. They're people too, subject to the same disorders and foibles that we all are, and even not being able to admit it freely is part of that for them. It is honestly textbook narcissism from books that I've read on it, and the life I've lead with people like that.
It makes me think of a story that I once heard on a podcast. The parents of this family wanted Christmas to be magical for their kids. They went to great lengths to concoct dramatic scenes and had people acting in them to make things so extremely real to them. A whole story was born, very deep and involved, and three of their kids loved everything about it. Even when they found out it was all a hoax after many years, the magic stuck with them and it was beautiful. However, one kid was tremendously scarred by it. He now struggles to trust anyone and it really screwed up his sense of reality. The intent was good, but one kid was sooooooooo screwed up by it. The other kids were not, in fact it added to their lives. We aren't all the same, and where people and organizations mess up is when one message is aimed at everyone and everyone is expected to fit in that box.
That's the beauty of a forum like this. Everyone gets a say. Everyone sees things differently. If we didn't, we'd be just like JW's with oppressed freedom to think and speak, shutting down anyone different than us. I may not see things just like you see them, but I can appreciate your view and see how you got there, and even feel a twinge of the "take the kids from them" that you feel. I can also see another side though from my decades in it and try to be fair as I see it.
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
If you try to keep them under your thumb at all times, you got problems. Give them
a little space and treat them like youngsters and don't expect adult type behavior from them, and you
will fare better.If I remember correctly, when I was a kid I heard an illustration many times about a spring. The speakers would say that if you have a spring squished between your two fingers and you let it go too quickly, it will bounce all over the place unpredictably. However, if you slowly open your fingers you can control how it opens up and avoid the chaos. The point was for parents to give their kids freedom and responsibility slowly. My question is this: Why do you have to crush them between your fingers in the first place? Maybe you don't have to have a controlling death grip on them from day one. Of course, they would never see it that way. And yes, we all know examples that mirror the ones that you mentioned. Controlling behavior rarely works out for the better.
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
Ha, no psychology courses per se, but I'm a people watcher that's had to do a LOT of work on myself coming from my family of origin. I've been through a lot of books and constantly question and try to learn. My life has been a course in and of itself, and the books help me to clarify things.
I too tried to change things from within, though the odds are stacked against anyone doing so. I used to be told to "be the change you want to see in the world", and came to the conclusion that although that is fine and dandy if you just want to be different yourself, if you have any expectation of changing others by doing so you're crazy. What is more likely, that one person can change an entire organization, or that the organization will either wear you down or boot you out. Or, like I am kind of doing, you run screaming from it when you just can't take anymore.
The organization is very perfectionistic. Their hyperbolic verbiage used in publications, such as "never would we want to have such an impure thought", or "we should always be (insert positive attribute here)" are just ridiculous assertions that leave no room for imperfection. Everything is black or white, right or wrong, good or bad. Ultimately, you are in or you are out. I remember talks about how you cannot sit on the fence, you are either on one side or the other. Come to think of it, that makes no sense. You literally can straddle a fence. They are the ones saying that you can't, but that's factually untrue in their illustration. It is just how they see the world. They will live at Armageddon and everyone else will die. Although if those people died today they would be resurrected. They just have the unfortunate circumstance of living in a time where they could die at Armageddon so they don't get a chance to die and be forgiven of their sins or for not listening to the person at their door with magazines. Ugh, I could go on, but the black and white thinking alone is a cognitive distortion (look it up) that indicates dysfunctional thinking.
I love your proposed name change.
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
Hi Millie,
I see where a lot of my view could differ from your because we see their intent differently. You seem to see them as cold parents seeking to profit off their kids. I see them more as parents that are overzealous in wanting what they themselves see as best for their kids and going too far (though I have to say that being controlling and manipulative to get people to act as you wish isn't really so benign).
There's a scripture in Proverbs that JW's translate one way and others translate another that I've found interesting for a long time. JW's translated it along the lines of "train up a boy in the way in which he should walk", whereas other translations say something along the lines of "train up a boy in the way in which he is bent". The JW version makes it all about the parent. You know what's best for him and make him toe that line. That's reflective of how I see the organization. The other translations put the emphasis on the way that individual child is wired, and the parent should help that child find his own way and to work within that child's individual framework to help them find their path. I like that much better. It seems much more healthy. That's the way I wish things were. To me it seems like the JW parents in this case see themselves as right in all things and as such, father knows best, as the saying goes.
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
Surprised you focused on on one word NJWS, but you are probably right. "Repaired" may not be the best word. It isn't like you can erase the past or make it right. Obviously, the core views would have to be changed, as that's where the humility comes into play. Most people that I've heard relate experiences from a screwed up childhood just want to be heard, acknowledged, and sincerely apologized to by their parents. To be seen for who they are means the world to them. For the future to be brighter, those parents would have to do a lot of changing themselves. As such, their core values would change.
The fact that I would hold out hope for change is just a possibility. It is a slim one, as toxic is as toxic does, and toxic people rarely suddenly become healthy. However, as the progeny of toxicity, I once was much more toxic than I am today. I was merely emulating what I had been brought up in. I was humble, and I'm a seeker, so I sought out better and happier ways to be. Not everyone goes down that path, in fact probably few do, but I do know that it is possible, even if not probable.
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The JW Family
by dubstepped inmaybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.
as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.
you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.
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dubstepped
Maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views. As I see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional. You have the parents in those taking the lead (GB, elders, overseers, etc.) and the kids that they're trying to raise (publishers in the congregations). However, I was reading some of the latest WT (September I believe) and it was really hitting me as to how things go in this family and my wife and I were discussing it. Here is what we see:
The parents are what one would call "helicopter parents" today. They stand over their kids and watch their every move and criticize it. They tell their kids what they should think, how they should feel, and always expect more. Much like the kid that has a dad that played baseball when he was younger and failed to live up to his own aspirations to get to the major leagues, we have parents that always want more and more. They don't take into account our individual limitations and/or interests. They expect us to play the game they way they want it played and to always practice, practice, practice so that we can get better. Could it be that if they'd at least leave room for imperfection and differences they might find out that we excel in some other game, or could play the game the way we're wired instead of just being little "mini-me" versions of them as they try to squeeze us into a predetermined mold?
Our parents in the organization are also narcissists. As mentioned, they not only see everything through their eyes and expect us to fall in line and follow suit, but we're little more than objects to them. We're here to validate their feelings, to make them look good. If we don't, just like any object, we can be discarded. And we know that. We don't walk around feeling loved, we walk around the organization feeling like we need to measure up, knowing that even one slip up could cost us dearly. Our parents make mistakes themselves, but when they do they get to gloss over them. Their mistakes slip into oblivion, not to be mentioned or pointed out, as any good narcissist will easily manipulate things so that their own mistakes are not pointed out. In fact, a good narcissist will make you think that you're the one that's wrong if you try to point out their error. They must manipulate in order to keep their position over you. In our case, they set themselves up as masters of our faith, contrary to what they're supposed to be.
As their children, we want to be looked upon with favor, so we spend some time trying to live up to what they want. However, there comes a point for many of us where we realize that we can never do so. They always want more, we're never good enough. The constant striving makes us tired and exasperated, to use a Biblical term. We then become downhearted, and start questioning our parents. It is really the only thing that we can do at that point. All of the sudden we start seeing that our parents are just messed up people repeating patterns from their parents. They're not superior to us, just older. Likely they are doing a better job than their parents if they have any desire to do better for themselves, and we'll strive to do better than they did in life. Ultimately though, the dad that you saw as Superman when you were little and that you looked up to is reduced to just a man. Another human, probably doing his best, but falling into patterns of conditioning and culture like we all do. It doesn't negate everything he's ever told you, as even the most abusive, horrible parents probably instilled some good things in their kids. Few things are all good or all bad. Regardless, that faith you once had in your parent is now crushed. As kids we set them up on high, but as adult parents they set themselves up for this too. They put themselves on a pedestal and lorded their position over us. They were always right, they knew what was right for us, and even when they were wrong they tried to blame us. It is sad, but ultimately in these types of families there's going to be a lot of fallout, and the parents brought a lot of it on themselves.
They have other children though that will defend those parents to the bitter end. Those children cannot see the defects of their parents. It hurts too much for them to acknowledge it, so they live life thinking those parents can do no wrong. If you mention that mom or dad did something negative, they will defend them and you end up the bad guy.
These types of families can be repaired. It takes transparency and humility though, and narcissists have a hard time ever finding the ability to do such. They lack the compassion of Jesus, who looked at the value of little kids and wanted them brought to him because he saw the characteristics that they possessed. Instead they see the kids as little more than problems, trying to keep them at bay.
Any thoughts? Maybe you see it differently? It honestly mirrors a lot of my own upbringing, from my literal family to my so called spiritual one that I grew up with as a Witness.
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april 15th simplified why is the article dissfelowship a loving arrangement missing
by poopie inthoghts
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dubstepped
Lol, good catch. The disfellowshipping article is in the regular study edition, but not the simplified. Probably because it takes too many words and lots of stretching to come up with their explanation, something that isn't ever simple to explain. There aren't any examples of people being shunned in the Bible that I can think of. No mention of the word "disfellowship" that I've seen. Nothing simple to point to. It requires mental gymnastics and kind of a "because we say so" attitude to really grasp the concept.