My wife and I have talked about this. Different areas of the country have different prevailing points of view on things. Some areas are more liberal, some more conservative. It is hard to create laws that really reflect the mindsets of the various areas with their differences. I don't know if it is good or bad. Drawing from so many perspectives maybe you end up somewhere closer to the middle. Then again, our politics has become so insane and polarized. I definitely think there should be more than a two party system. I don't really get into politics much. I find it nauseating. However, it seems like if states kind of governed themselves and the feds stayed out of the way there are ways that it wouldn't matter so much how large the country as a whole was.
dubstepped
JoinedPosts by dubstepped
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25
Is the USA too big?
by Diogenesister infred deftone on another thread about the tragic events at m. stoneman douglas school:.
the us constitution wasn't written for 50 states either.
the country has gotten too big and i think the solution is fragmentation.
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Assistance would be appreciated
by Plato inguess some introduction would be nice, before anything.
i’m a 17 year old men boy raised on a very liberal, highly intelectualized jw family.
currently very anxious on starting medical school at a high ranked public university around here.
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dubstepped
Plato - dad insists on the matter that when one wants to leave the organization in order to embrace the “worldly” lifestyle - and, by that, he means a pretty moral deprived life for most standards - one will search for mistakes and do the wrong form of questioning.
That's nothing more than indoctrination that was planted in his mind from the cult that controls him. JWs always want to act like those of us that leave do so to lead some morally bankrupt life and it's simply not true. I live a cleaner life than most JWs that I knew that are still in good standing. It's nothing more than an excuse to devalue what someone that leaves has to say. If you can dehumanize a person before even hearing what they have to say then you don't have to be intellectually honest. Your dad is trying to discredit people in the same way that the organization does. It is unfair and they won't have honest conversations because they're incapable of it. What you're dealing with here are "thought stopping techniques" designed to give the JW a way to stop going down a path with someone that could impact their faith. They just discredit the person, and now they don't have to think about it. It is typical cult behavior, even something that abusers do. They tell their victims not to talk to anyone else about what goes on, tell them that other people won't understand, etc.
How you get around that, I'm not sure. It is prejudicial thinking that was implanted through things like the organization calling "apostates" "mentally diseased". The reality is that it is JWs that do the wrong form of questioning in that they do none and aren't allowed to do so, or fear doing so because it would cause them pain if they found out what the truth really was.
I'd be interested in knowing what the "wrong form of questioning" is. Maybe ask him that. What does he mean by the "wrong form of questioning"? Doesn't the Bible say to "make sure of the more important things"? How can one do that wrong? Or does he just mean that people are doing it wrong by looking outside of the JW's written publications? Why would anyone read only one point of view on something and accept it without hearing any other perspective?
How did he get a PhD without asking tough questions, looking over "peer reviewed" papers, etc.? He should know, if he went to college and is educated, that part of learning what is true involves testing things out to see whether they hold water or not. Would he go out on a boat in the middle of a lake that I built simply because I told him that I knew what I was doing? Or would he test it out and put it in the water first and see if water started seeping into the boat or if it was water tight? How can you do that wrong, like he claims?
I don't know, it's hard to do something like help you with specific questioning when there could be so much more around it. And there is more. There is a history of things he was taught and believed that forms the belief that people just leave and question things because they want to act out morally and then somehow they makes them question in the wrong way, which is a bad assertion on both cases.
I'm telling you man, you seem like a good kid and you value your family. Your dad is an elder. The chances that you keep your family and have open and honest discussions about this where you can question things with him are very slim. You have to know this now.
People come on here all the time and fool themselves into thinking that somehow their family will accept them if they question the religion. Everyone thinks that their family will be the one that is different. It rarely is. My wife thought that her family would be okay with us seeing my disfellowshipped brother after 14 years of shunning him. I warned her that they wouldn't. I knew mine wouldn't, and I knew that hers wouldn't either. She listened but did not truly believe me. She was willing to lose them if necessary to do the loving thing and stop psychologically manipulating my brother by shunning him, but she didn't think they'd shun her. Literally the second that they found out her sister texted her, asked if my brother was still disfellowshipped, and once my wife told her that we prayed about it and felt that it was okay to see him and that it was our decision, she called my wife an apostate and said that they could no longer speak. That sister then went and told the entire family, and friends thousands of miles away, spreading the word. The next morning my wife woke up and all of her friends on Facebook were gone. All of those Jehovah's Witnesses shunned her instantly, without any verification, without ever speaking to my wife, without giving her a chance.
You have to go into any of this knowing that you will be shunned. If you aren't shunned, then that's a pleasant surprise and a rarity, but don't go in with any other frame of mind. You're playing with fire here. Most people get burned. You have said already that you can't be okay losing your family. If that's the case, then maybe you shouldn't play with fire. I'm telling you that because I care about you. I am honestly not sure what game your father is playing with you but it is very dangerous to you. If you play a game where you are honest and are punished for being honest, then you are playing a game that is rigged. Maybe you shouldn't play that game. Your dad may be deluded and thinks that he can play the game with you because he's so sure that he has "The Truth" that you can't possibly see things any other way. He has no idea what he's doing if that's the case. Everyone will lose in this game because the JW cult rigged it.
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Cheap Shots Fired
by Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho inwhen @brian j’s “bullet in the head” thread went live (https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4747450574176256/session-8-bullet-head) those written shots echoed in my mind.
a week later while overhearing a bible study, the conductor was asked if god really has given us “free will”.
but if someone ever put a gun to my head and asked me to renounce my faith as a jehovah’s witness, i would die.”.
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dubstepped
Wow, great post. They really cheapen the value of life. One's life is nothing of value but of the service that it provides to Jeho.....the organization. It is a mere commodity to be traded.
I would have died for it. I could have taken my own life because of it. I'm happy that I did neither and reclaimed my life. I'm happy for all that did. I can't believe they owned me so thoroughly at one point, that I gave those bastards my life.
That story by Losch is messed up. That's horrific.
I used to tell my wife that if they ever tried to have me renounce my faith by signing something I'd sign it, walk out, and serve Jehovah nonetheless. I couldn't understand how the corpse me would be more productive than a free me that witnessed underground. Your point about theocratic warfare stands. Their martyrdom is stupid.
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Assistance would be appreciated
by Plato inguess some introduction would be nice, before anything.
i’m a 17 year old men boy raised on a very liberal, highly intelectualized jw family.
currently very anxious on starting medical school at a high ranked public university around here.
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dubstepped
Oh yeah, it hurts because it is part of your own identity too. That threat of shunning hanging over your head is manipulation to keep you in line. That fear of getting caught, that the thought police might find you one day. It is terrifying because of that external pressure. But then you add that internal fear, that guilt or shame, and they have you stuck.
Again, you're brave for coming here at such a young age. There are other young ones here. I remember when I counted as a "young one", lol, but I guess since I turned 40 last year now I'm old. ;)
I don't know where you are in your journey exactly. The site jwfacts.com has absolutely some of the best information, taken directly from Watchtower publications, about the religion. Sites like this are good for conversation, though it helps to go in humble and asking questions. A lot of people here have been through some rough times because of Jehovah's Witnesses, myself included.
I don't know if you ever listen to podcasts but I did one called "This JW Life" where I went through my life story. I wasn't born a JW, my family became JWs when I was 8 or 9, and then I go through my life as a JW (including as a ministerial servant and pioneer), and on to the eventual path that took me out. I also do another podcast called "shunned" where I help other people to tell their stories. So far it has been mostly ex-JWs but I also had an ex-Mennonite that was shunned. I'm interviewing an ex-FLDS member next weekend, along with some other ex-JWs too.
There is a lot to the organization that my guess is you do not know. I don't know how long you've been looking around. They were affiliated with the United Nations for some time, something that they dropped literally the same week that they got caught (if I remember correctly). They have so many flip flops on doctrines like blood. They once deemed organ transplants as cannibalism and it would get you disfellowshipped. If you go back and read about the founders of the religion like Russell and Rutherford you'll find all kinds of crazy things. It was basically born out of the Millerites (a sect of the Seventh Day Adventists). They believed that Jehovah lived on a star in the Pleiades constellation, they had properties like Beth Sarim where they bought mansions for resurrected ones to live in. This is all factual stuff. Russell even sold "miracle wheat" and other scams. If you start learning about other religions you find that JWs aren't alone in their view of the world in many ways. I had no idea until I left. You will find that they often use an ellipses (....) in a quote to manipulate the quote and hide information that wouldn't go along with the point that they are trying to make in their publications.
I could go on and on and on. I don't want to overwhelm you. It doesn't feel good to wake up one day and realize that you were tricked for so long. It feels very bad. It is hard to accept, and there is a grieving process like you might go through if you lost someone close to you. Some people are very bitter, some are compassionate but still very hurt. Many of us, like my wife and I that have now been out for just over two years, have rebuilt our lives and live free and very happy lives. Others here have spouses that are JWs because they married a JW, or maybe they are awake but their husband or wife is still very much in the religion. To a person almost all of us have had our families ripped apart by it. They absolutely destroy families. My dad died 6 months after my wife and I left the organization and were shunned. I wasn't invited to his memorial at the Kingdom Hall.
I shunned my own brother for 14 years or so. He was disfellowshipped for something he didn't even do simply because he wanted to walk away and didn't want to talk to the elders and wanted to be left alone. I didn't know that. One of the biggest things that woke me up was studying books on emotional abuse, narcissism, love, happiness, and other psychological health books. I started seeing how manipulative things were in the religion, and how I was being used to psychologically manipulate my brother to try to get him to come back. He was a happily married man living in another state, living a good and upright life, but because he was disfellowshipped and labeled as that he would be labeled forever even if he changed his life around, all because he didn't want to be a JW anymore. I reached out to him and apologized for manipulating him in that way through shunning. He accepted me and I accepted him. I was shunned by my parents for doing so. My wife was shunned by her family for doing so. We were still JWs in good standing. Six months later, after much study and looking into the organization, with our families shunning us for one decision we made after so many years of faithful shunning, we realized that love was not the identifying mark of Jehovah's Witnesses. Rather, it was control. Control is not love. We disassociated and got the name of the organization off of us so as to be truly free to live our lives.
We've learned so much in these last two years. We were lied to in so many ways by the religion that we gave everything to.
Anyway, I need to get off to bed as it is late here and I have to work tomorrow. I envy your youth and how brave and awake you are for that age. The one thing I don't envy is that it puts you in a very tough position at an age where you still have so much maturing to do and this is something that is very hard to handle, even though you seem very intelligent and like a good person.
Later my new friend,
Mike (I can use my real name because I'm free and don't have to hide anymore. That isn't true for most.)
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Assistance would be appreciated
by Plato inguess some introduction would be nice, before anything.
i’m a 17 year old men boy raised on a very liberal, highly intelectualized jw family.
currently very anxious on starting medical school at a high ranked public university around here.
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dubstepped
Oh man, trying to wake up family members or to open their eyes even a little bit to errors in the religion is a slippery slope. It is not only dangerous to yourself and your standing, but it is also largely ineffective. People tend to get defensive when these things are questioned because their identity is wrapped up in the organization. So you aren't just questioning something of a religion, you are questioning their very essence, their being.
We've all been where you are, with that first post on a forum like this. At least you're waking up at just 17 years of age. I was in my late 30's before I woke up. I wasted so many years and endured so much pain. I remember the day when I asked my wife (we woke up together, gradually over years) if I could go on a site like this. I wanted to do it but didn't want to do so until she was ready to hear what I found. Isn't that silly? Isn't it silly that you have to feel this way about posting here? Does that show something about the religion that you're involved in? Of course it does. You know that though.
I commend you on your courage to come here and ask your questions, to put forth your story a bit. It takes strength to be vulnerable. You live in an insular world where people don't often admit their weaknesses, where people are consumed with keeping up appearances so that they always look good for Jehovah, for the congregation, etc. It is largely a fake world. So much goes on behind closed doors in homes where they show up to the next meeting and make it look like everything is okay, maybe even get up and give a public talk on a Sunday. You are smart and if you keep that open mind you'll see more and more as you get older.
There may be a time to burn it all down someday. There may not be such a time for you, who knows. Right now doesn't seem to be that time though. You can be awake and still work within your current framework until such a time as it truly causes you pain enough to make changes. You'll know when the time is right. You won't be able to keep your mouth shut anymore, lol.
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Assistance would be appreciated
by Plato inguess some introduction would be nice, before anything.
i’m a 17 year old men boy raised on a very liberal, highly intelectualized jw family.
currently very anxious on starting medical school at a high ranked public university around here.
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dubstepped
You mentioned that family came first, if I understood correctly (your English is great, by the way). If you question the beliefs you may not just end up shunned by the congregation, but by your family as well. You're young, and have a lot going for you. I think if you go down that path of questioning openly you could cause unnecessary distractions for this pivotal time in your life. You don't have to burn it all down if you have opportunities afforded to you by what seems like a very different JW existence than most. We've only seen but a fraction of your story above, so clearly we can only advise you so much, but it doesn't sound like anything is pushing you right now to burn it all to the ground.
Oh, and welcome to the forum, from an atheist no less. ;)
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The John Cedars Channel on YouTube taken down after posting a critique of leaked videos for Regional (District) Convention
by oppostate inthe wt is at it again it seems.
playing dirty as it can, trying to silence dissenters.. the john cedars channel on youtube has been taken down after the posting of a video critique of regional (district) convention leaked videos.. sounds like something putin would do in russia.
you know what they say, birds of a feather fly together--what a murder of crows all of'em!.
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dubstepped
Pale Emperor - It seems someone at Watchtower's sole job is to type "Jehovah's Witnesses" into YouTube and report them.
Yeah, his name is John Davis. Before him it was a guy named Richard Oliver. They come on here mad as can be about legal technicalities that they want to use to protect their cult but you'll rarely see them outraged about things like the abuse of children despite their ability to quote age of consent laws from countries around the world. It is fascinating to watch people react so vociferously to slights against laws but not against humans, even children. We always have at least one of them on here. So there will always be some monitoring other sites as well, like YouTube.
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The John Cedars Channel on YouTube taken down after posting a critique of leaked videos for Regional (District) Convention
by oppostate inthe wt is at it again it seems.
playing dirty as it can, trying to silence dissenters.. the john cedars channel on youtube has been taken down after the posting of a video critique of regional (district) convention leaked videos.. sounds like something putin would do in russia.
you know what they say, birds of a feather fly together--what a murder of crows all of'em!.
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dubstepped
@ John Davis - You mad bro?
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What’s the most effective way to wake the largest amount of JW’s up?
by Farmer Jim1 inwhat can one person do to save as many people as possible from this organisation?.
youtube videos?.
mail shots?.
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dubstepped
People have different experiences and therefore relate to different things. People consume information in different ways. I don't think there's any way to wake people up anyway. That process starts from within and only after that point will they be open to anything. Once they wake up we can all be there to offer help in different ways to appeal to as many as possible.
Funny enough, I think the thing that hits people en masse, people that in my view are already waking up, is Watchtower's own idiocy. Things like the overlapping generations foolishness or tight pants rants tend to be watershed moments more than anything an outsider can do.
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Please Switch Off Your Critical Thinking
by pale.emperor ini have an uneasy feeling inside that something is coming this year or the next.
perhaps a new big announcement that turns jwdom on it's head.. we've seen the statement in the watchtower november 15th, 2013 which said:.
watchtower november 15th, 2013 - page 20, paragraph 17.. .
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dubstepped
While they thrive on the doomsday connection, there's also been a push toward the whole "best life ever" movement and "Christian Life" (CLAM meeting). I could easily see a distancing from the dates of 1914 to a simple but general "look how bad the world is, we give you the 'real life', and a promise of better things to come". They don't need 1914 to keep the end in mind, they have this false hope contrasted with their twisted portrayal of the "wicked world" and I think waiting for their "deliverance" would be enough. They can even still keep the doomsday in mind, but let go of dates. Heck, they've predicted it over and over and successfully moved the goalposts every time to something more vague. They don't need dates to keep the contrast with doom and false hope.
Of course, none of us can do anything but speculate, but losing 1914 would be hard for many older ones. I bet they can be "adjusted" though. That's just how I can see it going down. From what I understand they don't talk about it much anymore, and they've erased their doom and gloom history. Now they can just focus on hating the gays and apostates.