Posts by dubstepped

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

I do still hold on to some of the teachings that I learned. I personally agree with many teachings even though there are many that I don't agree with. I don't think that I'm mentally "in" simply for not throwing out the baby with the bath water. It does happen to be a place that formed a lot of my neural pathways and therefore is a part of me that I will have with me. Honestly I don't want to be labeled a JW or Baptist or Buddhist or whatever. I just want to be me. Just ol' dubstepped walking through this world, picking and grazing on truths wherever they can be found. Of course I feel that truth can be found elsewhere. That's why I said that there's truth to be found around in lots of places. Nobody owns the trademark on the truth, even though JW's claim it for their own, which pisses me off. So there's some truths to be found in other religions, in philosophy, science, psychology, life experiences, just stepping out my door this morning I may learn something or adjust a mindset.

I haven't stayed. I've walked away quietly (well, maybe not that quietly either). I don't have to hate everything that I grew up with or deny truths that I still do believe in to walk away. Same with my Smith family. They taught me some values that still serve me even if they also taught me a bunch of bs. I can hold in one hand that JW's have some truth, and in the other that (insert name of religion here) has some. I can hold in one hand that I'm hurt by the organization and have bad feelings toward them, but hold in the other that this or that does make sense to me. It isn't an all or nothing proposition.

I'm not mentally "in", nor am I mentally "out". I'm mentally picking and choosing what to take and what to leave behind. I'm trying not to allow my emotions to dictate my intellect, or vice versa. I'm trying to allow for myself to be hurt and angry and at the same time to appreciate what I can. That allows me not to be swallowed up by bitterness. Much of life is perspective and the ability to choose to focus on the positive, the negative, or to try to have some of both. I don't like just seeing one side of a coin. It seems unfair. I realize that my path may not be for everyone, and that's fine, as I'm me. Mentally, I'm just me. Emotionally I'm just me. For the first time in my life I'm allowing myself to drop the ego and the rigidity and to be authentically me. Unfortunately my last name puts a label on me for some, as does my agreement with some JW teachings that would allow people to label me as a JW that is "in". I get tired of labels. I'm just me, no matter what labels people need to use to define me. So if you wish to label me a JW that is "in" or "staying" despite my actions and acknowledgements to the contrary, that doesn't affect who I am so that's cool. I hope to be understood but don't expect most to do so because it seems like everything is binary and it once was for me too. In or out, JW or not, male or female, hetero or homo, black or white. I just kind of see it all now as one big pool of humanity that is constantly morphing and fluid. I can take from here and there and try to build something that makes sense for me and constantly strive to learn and change as I grow older.

Thanks for giving me a chance to explain where I am. I have no desire to get into the scriptural tennis match and don't intend to. Maybe this makes sense to you, maybe not. I also appreciate you sharing why you feel as you do toward the WT. I can understand why you would feel as such. If you can't understand why I feel as I do, I don't know what else I can say, but thanks for trying.

Peace.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

you have clearly thought about your position and made the decision to stay in the WT

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "stay in the WT", especially since you don't know much about me or my situation. If by "stay in the WT" you mean going to meetings, nope. I'm shunned by my family and friends, though just a fader. I lost family to df and lost all of the people that I grew up with to df or da or they faded so far I have no clue where they are. I've done things in line with my conscience but against the directive given by the GB. I'm here on an apostate website, but to you I'm staying in the WT. Not hardly.

Okay, so where am I then? Well, let's say that my last name is Smith just for the sake of illustration. I was born a Smith, raised a Smith, and even though my family shuns me I'm still a Smith. Smith blood runs through me. Smith ways of thinking and being were instilled into me. I can't shake that no matter how different I am than the Smith kid that they knew while raising me. I will forever be a Smith. I could even change my last name, but I'm still a Smith deep down and that can't be changed. I live a totally different life than all of the Smith's that I grew up with. I've reached out for other ways of thinking and being and grew up into a different Smith than the path they had me on, but alas, I'm still a Smith.

Same goes for JW's (never identified myself as a WT). I was raised one. Many of my formative beliefs start there, but they don't end there. Still, that's my starting point and I'm building upon that just like I did my being raised as a Smith. No matter where I end up I won't lose all of the Smith in me, nor the dub. To do so would be to say that it was all bad, all wrong, and it wasn't/isn't even though it has been a very painful journey fraught with disappointment. People would like it to be all bad so that they can just dismiss it all and walk away, just like it is easy to twist up something like the Trinity and make it so far from what it was so as to make it easily dismissed. There's truth all around in lots of places. I hope that I don't throw out the truth found no matter where I find it. If I throw out everything that I find to be true or don't give something a chance simply because one interaction is negative, I'll never find much truth in this world.

9

JW's are Egomaniacs and the Org is an Ego machine

by freemindfade in

i've been thinking a lot lately about ego vs self.

i have also been trying to differentiate freudian model of ego, super & id, but more of a ego=false self vs soul=true self.

while there are many ego institutions out there, the witness reality buries its victims in a avalanche of ego.

dubstepped

No worries rebelfighter. It's not like my ego is caught up in the rating system. ;) And I'm sure my fat fingers have downvoted others while scrolling on my phone.

31

and Moses came down the mountain on his....DUCATI

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

worst day in the last ten years, was the day i hit 0.00 with one and a half years of university to go.

nobody to turn to, nobody to ask for help.

i was 32 and as an ex jw had two family members in contact with me.

dubstepped

Congrats! What a cool story.

9

JW's are Egomaniacs and the Org is an Ego machine

by freemindfade in

i've been thinking a lot lately about ego vs self.

i have also been trying to differentiate freudian model of ego, super & id, but more of a ego=false self vs soul=true self.

while there are many ego institutions out there, the witness reality buries its victims in a avalanche of ego.

dubstepped

A New Earth by Tolle really opened my eyes to this. As I've made changes to be more in line with my true self I've watched it become a threat to the ego of others and the distance starts because my ego no longer needs to be fed by or to feed theirs. A big part of that book is to really understand how we're all so interconnected as human beings. It is hard to reconcile something like that when your whole live revolves around being different from the world around you (all ego). I used to be so shut off from everyone else, so alone, so miserable, depressed, judgemental, and ego driven. Breaking free from that has made me truly happy, but those that knew in my ego phase don't know me anymore.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

Hi Jan,

First, all parents lie to their kids on some level. Whether it's telling them that eating veggies will make them like their favorite superhero, avoiding discussing what is really going on in the family to kids that they think can't handle it by manipulation, or something else. Now, it can obviously go to the extreme like you mentioned with adults that groom children for perverted reasons. There are levels, and much depends on the intent, once again so much boils down to that. Sometimes lies protect kids, sometimes they motivate them to do something for their own good that otherwise they wouldn't do, like eating something healthy. Sometimes they deliberately hurt kids and are nefarious, like the pervert you alluded to. In the end, few relationships are all good or all bad. On a show that I listen to people often relate their past abuse and the horrors of it, but on the flip side a question is asked about positive dealings with their abuser, and most have plenty to list. Even in the midst of horrible abuses the victim often walks away conflicted on some level, because the fact that there's both positive and negative experiences is what really makes abuse so abusive. If a person was pure evil alone they could be written off more easily.

From the outside looking in it would be easy to vilify everything JW's stand for, much the same as people that look at so and so that was caught abusing their child look and only see a horrible parent or adult. And I'm not saying that the organization, or that abusive parent, hasn't done horrible things. But there were good things that those in the organization experienced. And none of us make it through life unscathed. Whether it be parents, coworkers, friends, strangers, organizations, etc., all of us get abused in some way.

For some the intent of everything JW is evil. For others it is all beautiful reflections of the attributes of Jehovah God as they see it. For me, it is in between. Some really good stuff, some really bad and damaging stuff, and some things in between. I try to choose to see all sides of it.

And if you start taking kids away from narcissistic parents that are overly controlling, good luck raising all of those kids, lol. They might then rise up and point at all of the lax parents that let kids do whatever they want at the other end of the spectrum and you can take all of their kids away too. In the end, even the controlling narcissist can have good intent. Intent isn't always borne out in the results that come from it. My parents meant well and did a number on me. I was very resentful of that and still harbor some, but I try to temper it with intent as far as I know it.

You see the organization as trying to hurt their kids through manipulative tactics. I see them as trying too hard to protect their kids and wanting them to be good enough for salvation that they're willing to do whatever they can to push them that way as they see it. I understand that isn't always a popular view among people that have been hurt tremendously (as have I) by this organization. It is easy just to look at them as dysfunctional parents that should be discarded, as that's how they view their own children, as objects to be discarded. I hope that I'm getting away from that way of thinking. They're people too, subject to the same disorders and foibles that we all are, and even not being able to admit it freely is part of that for them. It is honestly textbook narcissism from books that I've read on it, and the life I've lead with people like that.

It makes me think of a story that I once heard on a podcast. The parents of this family wanted Christmas to be magical for their kids. They went to great lengths to concoct dramatic scenes and had people acting in them to make things so extremely real to them. A whole story was born, very deep and involved, and three of their kids loved everything about it. Even when they found out it was all a hoax after many years, the magic stuck with them and it was beautiful. However, one kid was tremendously scarred by it. He now struggles to trust anyone and it really screwed up his sense of reality. The intent was good, but one kid was sooooooooo screwed up by it. The other kids were not, in fact it added to their lives. We aren't all the same, and where people and organizations mess up is when one message is aimed at everyone and everyone is expected to fit in that box.

That's the beauty of a forum like this. Everyone gets a say. Everyone sees things differently. If we didn't, we'd be just like JW's with oppressed freedom to think and speak, shutting down anyone different than us. I may not see things just like you see them, but I can appreciate your view and see how you got there, and even feel a twinge of the "take the kids from them" that you feel. I can also see another side though from my decades in it and try to be fair as I see it.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

If you try to keep them under your thumb at all times, you got problems. Give them
a little space and treat them like youngsters and don't expect adult type behavior from them, and you
will fare better.

If I remember correctly, when I was a kid I heard an illustration many times about a spring. The speakers would say that if you have a spring squished between your two fingers and you let it go too quickly, it will bounce all over the place unpredictably. However, if you slowly open your fingers you can control how it opens up and avoid the chaos. The point was for parents to give their kids freedom and responsibility slowly. My question is this: Why do you have to crush them between your fingers in the first place? Maybe you don't have to have a controlling death grip on them from day one. Of course, they would never see it that way. And yes, we all know examples that mirror the ones that you mentioned. Controlling behavior rarely works out for the better.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

Ha, no psychology courses per se, but I'm a people watcher that's had to do a LOT of work on myself coming from my family of origin. I've been through a lot of books and constantly question and try to learn. My life has been a course in and of itself, and the books help me to clarify things.

I too tried to change things from within, though the odds are stacked against anyone doing so. I used to be told to "be the change you want to see in the world", and came to the conclusion that although that is fine and dandy if you just want to be different yourself, if you have any expectation of changing others by doing so you're crazy. What is more likely, that one person can change an entire organization, or that the organization will either wear you down or boot you out. Or, like I am kind of doing, you run screaming from it when you just can't take anymore.

The organization is very perfectionistic. Their hyperbolic verbiage used in publications, such as "never would we want to have such an impure thought", or "we should always be (insert positive attribute here)" are just ridiculous assertions that leave no room for imperfection. Everything is black or white, right or wrong, good or bad. Ultimately, you are in or you are out. I remember talks about how you cannot sit on the fence, you are either on one side or the other. Come to think of it, that makes no sense. You literally can straddle a fence. They are the ones saying that you can't, but that's factually untrue in their illustration. It is just how they see the world. They will live at Armageddon and everyone else will die. Although if those people died today they would be resurrected. They just have the unfortunate circumstance of living in a time where they could die at Armageddon so they don't get a chance to die and be forgiven of their sins or for not listening to the person at their door with magazines. Ugh, I could go on, but the black and white thinking alone is a cognitive distortion (look it up) that indicates dysfunctional thinking.

I love your proposed name change.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

Hi Millie,

I see where a lot of my view could differ from your because we see their intent differently. You seem to see them as cold parents seeking to profit off their kids. I see them more as parents that are overzealous in wanting what they themselves see as best for their kids and going too far (though I have to say that being controlling and manipulative to get people to act as you wish isn't really so benign).

There's a scripture in Proverbs that JW's translate one way and others translate another that I've found interesting for a long time. JW's translated it along the lines of "train up a boy in the way in which he should walk", whereas other translations say something along the lines of "train up a boy in the way in which he is bent". The JW version makes it all about the parent. You know what's best for him and make him toe that line. That's reflective of how I see the organization. The other translations put the emphasis on the way that individual child is wired, and the parent should help that child find his own way and to work within that child's individual framework to help them find their path. I like that much better. It seems much more healthy. That's the way I wish things were. To me it seems like the JW parents in this case see themselves as right in all things and as such, father knows best, as the saying goes.

28

The JW Family

by dubstepped in

jw
friends

maybe this is a bit obtuse, but see if you can follow me here and maybe throw in your own views.

as i see it, the organization as a whole is a family, and like most, it is dysfunctional.

you have the parents in those taking the lead (gb, elders, overseers, etc.

dubstepped

Surprised you focused on on one word NJWS, but you are probably right. "Repaired" may not be the best word. It isn't like you can erase the past or make it right. Obviously, the core views would have to be changed, as that's where the humility comes into play. Most people that I've heard relate experiences from a screwed up childhood just want to be heard, acknowledged, and sincerely apologized to by their parents. To be seen for who they are means the world to them. For the future to be brighter, those parents would have to do a lot of changing themselves. As such, their core values would change.

The fact that I would hold out hope for change is just a possibility. It is a slim one, as toxic is as toxic does, and toxic people rarely suddenly become healthy. However, as the progeny of toxicity, I once was much more toxic than I am today. I was merely emulating what I had been brought up in. I was humble, and I'm a seeker, so I sought out better and happier ways to be. Not everyone goes down that path, in fact probably few do, but I do know that it is possible, even if not probable.