Posts by artful

28

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study

by blondie in

22 years ago

comments you will not hear at the 3-23-03 wt study

february 15, 2003, page 18.

(the reviewers comments are in black or within parentheses.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

Hi Blondie: Thanks for posting these references to John 15. It appears that the earlier quotes interpret 'bearing fruit' as actually being productive by making disciples and state that this is not the same as just sowing seed. (5/1/58 WT, 4/1/58 WT). Then, the 60, 64, 76, 78, 83, 01 WTs associate 'bearing fruit' to displaying the fruitage of the spirit, and Christlike qualities (fine deeds toward others, political neutrality, etc.). None of these dispel the idea taught in the 50's that bearing fruit meant making disciples, but rather they seem to expand the meaning to include exhibiting Christlike qualities.
I'm not sure where the last quote came from, but it seems to revert back to the 50's teaching by suggesting that the fruitage of the Kingdom ministry is evidenced by the growth in disciples - namely the 300,000 new ones who are added each year: "(John 15:8) Both by the fruitage of the spirit and by the Kingdom fruitage of their ministry, the disciples brought glory to Jehovah Today, Jehovah's blessing is upon his people as they engage in a global spiritual harvest. For a number of years now, about 300,000 new ones every year"

In all of these quotes, there doesn't seem to be any mention that 'bearing fruit' represents 'sowing seeds' - in fact they state exactly the opposite. However, the quote from this weeks WT says: "the fruitage in this case is neither new disciples nor fine Christian qualities."

I would therefore suggest that the WT study of this week represents a change in doctrine for the WTS regarding Jesus illustration of the branches and the vine!

Of course, I wouldn't expect that any of the 'faithful' would notice this change as they ingest this 'food at the proper time'!
Thanks Blondie
Artful

Link

15

ANNE GRAHAM

by Scorpion in

22 years ago

in light of the many.

another for a laugh, this is a little.

different: this is not intended to be a. joke, it's not funny, it's intended to.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

"How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

As a Christian, I definitely find the above thought process unreasonable - namely: "If we are good Christians then God will protect us from physical harm, but if we are not, then we are more likely to be subject to physical harm". I don't believe that Jesus or any of his disciples taught this.

Having said that, I would suggest that it is also unreasonable for those who 'ask God to leave them alone' to then blame him when any catastrophic event occurs. God is either directly responsible for the bad AND good that happen in our lives, or he is not. I don't believe that we can have it both ways.

Personally, I don't believe that God is directly responsible for the events that occur in our individual day to day affairs. He has equipped each and every one of us with the capacity for moral values and principles (whether we are Christian or not), and any monumental events that occur in our lives (good or bad) are primarily the result of our own actions, the actions of those around us, or chance occurrence. But that's just me, maybe I have it all wrong!
Cheers
Artful

Link

15

Is the Watchtower Sterile Seed?

by jgnat in

22 years ago

wt february 1

keep bearing much fruit

study march 23, 2003

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

Blondie: good point about being hard-pressed to find young adults as examples. The younger generation are very computer and Web literate, and have much greater access to information then we ever did. I think this problem for the WTS will continue to grow.
Artful

Link

28

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study

by blondie in

22 years ago

comments you will not hear at the 3-23-03 wt study

february 15, 2003, page 18.

(the reviewers comments are in black or within parentheses.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

Blondie: Do you know if this interpretation of John 15:1-8 represents a change in doctrine for the WTS? I looked up this passage in the Insight book but they offer no interpretation there. Since I don't have access to a WT CD-ROM I wasn't able to find any other reference to the vine and branches illustration. I'm sure they have always taught that 'bearing fruit' meant making disciples, not distributing seed. Since I believe you have a WT CD, would you mind checking this?
Thanks alot!
Artful

Link

9

Voices in Head Not Demons? - WT Writers Have a Reasonable Moment?

by NeonMadman in

22 years ago

.

i found this interesting - it's the questions from readers in the may 1, 2003 watchtower.

could it be that the boys in the writing department actually had a moment of reasonableness?.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

NeonMadman: The reason for this article is that those on the Governing Body have recently been hearing voices in their heads, and would like to discredit those who say that Satan is trying to use them as his channel! In other words, its OK if you hear voices in your head, it's not Satan, you're just mentally ill, and therefore still qualified to dispense the 'food at the proper time'.
This is sort of like when it suddenly became OK to have a cornea transplant in 1981. It would be interesting to check the NYC hospital records for the names of GB members (or their family) who underwent eye surgery that year!
Cheers Artful (of the conspiracy theory class)

Link

15

Is the Watchtower Sterile Seed?

by jgnat in

22 years ago

wt february 1

keep bearing much fruit

study march 23, 2003

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

jgnat: Thanks for this post...great title...LOL and very true!
The box with the testimonials from old-timers which lists their current age and the year that they were baptized is very interesting. I don't have the article in front of me now, but I remember reading it when it came out and figuring out that of the 6 or 7 people quoted, the ages of baptism ranged from something like 11 years old to 15 years old. And who says, JWs don't practice infant baptism!
Cheers Artful

Link

7

King from the North

by Cheyannesways in

22 years ago

prior to 1978 did the jw's use daniel 11 about the king from the north and the king from the south to imply this was signs of the great tribulation coming or signs of the end?

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

NeonMadman: you are correct, according to the recent WTS Daniel book, they claim that 'the course of wisdom' has lead them to not attempt to identify the King of the North! I guess the Watchtower article in 1984 was not observing the 'course of wisdom' when it emphatically stated that the King of the North (clearly identified by them as USSR) and the South (USA) were then embroiled in their 'FINAL conflict'!!!! The Daniel book still refers to 'Anglo-America' as the King of the South.
Cheers Artful

Link

28

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study

by blondie in

22 years ago

comments you will not hear at the 3-23-03 wt study

february 15, 2003, page 18.

(the reviewers comments are in black or within parentheses.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

Hey Blondie!
Great points here as always. Thank you for taking the time to do this every week!
I really enjoyed this point:
"What about the personal interest shown to those who are already Witnesses? Who has been sent a get-well card or been called?"
If I could, I would like to share a short story to emphasize your point.
My wife was in for surgery last summer. While she was in the hospital for three days recovering, not one elder from her hall stopped in to see her. Meanwhile, she noticed her room mate received a visit from her pastor nearly every day to check if she was in need of anything. A couple of months later, when my wife had two of the 'loving shepherds' from her hall stop in (incidentally, just before a CO visit), she explained to them that she had never received a visit or call from from any 'shepherds' in the hall during this time and yet her room mate's pastor was there frequently. The answer from one of the loving shepherds was......you're going to love this....'Well, he's paid to do that'. Priceless!!!! No apologies, no loving concern, just a questioning of the motives of the shepherd from Christendom. I think that was the beginning of the end for my wife!

This quote from them is truly amazing:
"Although the vine's branches in the illustration refer to Jesus' apostles and other Christians who are in line for a place in God's heavenly Kingdom, the illustration contains truths from which all of Christ's followers today can benefit. Hence by keeping Christ's commandments, his followers remain in union with him, and that unity, in turn, enables them to bear fruit."
More Watchtower doublespeak! In other words "You are not really one of the branches, but if you stay close to those of us who are the branches, you can still be saved".
If we read the entire illustration of the vine given at John 15, we will see that Jesus clearly stated you are either 'in union' with him (read: ARE BRANCHES attached to the vine) or not. There is no provision made for those who are not in union with Christ, but are in union with 'those who are in union with him'. This same sentiment of either being 'in union' with Christ, or in union with the flesh is echoed by Paul's writing in Romans 8. In other words, according to the scriptures in John and Romans, you are either 'One of the Branches' in union with Christ, or not.
Cheers
Artful (of the 'in union with those in union' class!)

Link

20

Fred said: The "Captivity" of 1918

by refiners fire in

22 years ago

surely the most significant visible event in the history of the 20th century in terms of biblical importance was not the first world war, nor was it the remarkable acceleration in knowledge and technology, nor was it the restoration of jews to the land of israel.

the most significant event of the 20th century just has to be the events of 1918 / 1919 in the captivity and the release of jehovahs organization from babylonish enslavement.

i say this because so much biblical prophecy was fulfilled in those amazing world shaking events.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

RF: The quotes you posted read just like the Isaiah books...you'd love them! As Blondie mentions, almost every page has mention of the 'modern day' (1919) fulfillment. This is one of the main reasons my wife has stopped going to the BS (fitting acronym!). She couldn't stand to listen to scriptures constantly being applied to this little band of arrogant men anymore.
If you would like a copy of these books, send me an e-mail at artful_02@hotmail.com. I'd be more than happy to arrange to send them to you...They make for some very funny reading!
Cheers Artful

Link

43

George Bush's excuse is good enough for me !

by searchfothetruth in

22 years ago

i am really excited by george bush's latest reason for bombing iraq: he's running out of patience.

for some time now i've been really pi##ed off with mr johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street.

well, him and mr patel, who runs the health food shop.they both give me queer looks, and i'm sure mr johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far i haven't been able to discover what.. i've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden.

22 years ago

artful 22 years ago

Interesting points here Search...I like the way the article concludes in the Observer...very Monty Python!
"Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come.

It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street."

Artful

Link