Some good stuff here UD!However, a couple of points I'm not quite sure of:
1. You mention Jesus words in Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." seemingly to support the idea that both Jesus and the thief ascended to heaven that day. However, didn't Jesus ascend to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3)?
2. You refer to the rapture (ascension to heaven in spirit/soul) as having applied to various ones in the OT. However, wasn't Jesus the first to ascend to heaven? (Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20) How do you reconcile this?
Cheers
Artful
artful
JoinedPosts by artful
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THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Weekly # 1 - Only 144,000 Go To Heaven?
by UnDisfellowshipped inthe truth will set you free weekly # 1 -- only 144,000 go to heaven?
disclaimer: i am not an expert on the bible.
1st peter 1:3: blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ, who according to his great mercy became our father again to a living hope through the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead,.
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artful
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-6-03 WT Study
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 4-6-03 wt study .
february 15, 2003 wt page 17
quotes from the wt will be in red ; reviewers comments in black and parentheses.
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artful
Blondie: You really did an excellent job dissecting this one!!
Good point that MANY of the 1st century Christians did not have these special gifts of spirit. As you point out, they make a remarkable comment in para 14: "Am I inclined to have deep emotions that I could misjudge?"
Wouldn't receiving God's spirit and having it 'bear witness with our spirit that we are his children' have a very deep emotional impact on us? In fact, in paragraph 18 they use this deep feeling as the main reason why those who are 'really' of the anointed are so sure of their calling!!I enjoyed your comment that 'without explanation or proof' the WTS goes on to make several statements regarding the 'two classes'. I noticed that although the preceding paragraphs are rife with scriptures, there are none quoted in support of their 'sealing' of the heavenly class in paragraph 11! I particularly loved the line from them that "By the 1930’s, then, it was becoming clear that, in general, the heavenly class had been chosen.." clear to whom!!!? They are so pathetic.
Thanks for pointing out the 'alien resident' issue. As you know, I posted another thread which details reasons why the GC should partake if these 'alien residents' were symbolic of the 'other sheep' - see:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/49192/1.ashx
To use WTS line of reasoning (that the alien residents could not become priests), we would also have to conclude that not all of the 'Israel of God' (read: the 144k) could be priests in heaven, only those of a 'Levi class' could - just as not all of the Israelites could become priests, only the Levites could.
A point regarding the WTS's dual use of the word 'observe' in these articles:1. Last week, the WTS made sure to point out that 'observing' the memorial is a direct command from Jesus .
2. They then defined what 'observing' the memorial actually means - namely to "Partake of the Memorial emblems" 3. This week, they use the same word 'observe' but apply it to those who are 'watching' but not actually 'observing' it in the way that Jesus commanded .
This is a very clever use of the word 'observe' on the part of the writers. Very clever, but of course very misleading! They manage to convince both groups that they are 'observing' the Memorial by applying two different definitions of the same word to each group. First by applying the word observe in the active sense to the 'anointed' (partaking), and then by applying the word 'observe' in the passive sense to the GC (watching). This allows rank and file JWs to confidently say that they "observe the Memorial". When what they are really saying is that they 'watch' the Memorial. When we read Jesus command to 'observe', it's obvious that he meant to 'partake', not to just 'watch' others doing this.Cheers
Artful .PS. Great comments AMNESIAN!
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Birthdays - I may need some input
by rocketman inwe had a birthday "party" for my daughter at a local restaurant today, with a group of her friends invited.
we are "inactive" but i still attend some meetings.
i do not comment or want any 'privilages'.. anyway, one person whom my daughter invited is a jw, though she has said that she may want to get out soon.
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artful
Rocketman
The comments below from the WTS may be of use to you if you are questioned by the elders or any other well meaning 'friends' or family regarding a birthday celebration.In the Awake of April 8 2003, a reader wrote in with a concern regarding an article the Awake had run on Hawaiian Luaus. Their very fair question read in part:
"Even if luaus today do not involve religious or spiritistic aspects, how are the different from other celebrations that have pagan origins but simply have been adopted by modern cultures to be a family fun gathering.?"Awake responds (in part): "...while the luau may at one time have had a connection with false religious practices, the word now has simply come to refer to a Hawaiian banquet."
So in other words, even though the luau has pagan origins, there is no connection made in the minds of those celebrating a luau in modern times with these 'false' practices. Therefore, a luau receive the WTS stamp of approval. As we see the WTS never really answered the readers' question which was "What makes a luau any different from other celebrations that have pagan origins but are now just a fun family gathering (ie. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Halloween, Valentines Day, (Birthdays?) etc, etc, etc.) As the reader suggested, why could we not apply that same principle that the WTS applies to a luau (simply a banquet or fun family gathering) to the numerous other celebrations - another WTS double standard it would seem - or is there a change in the wind?
Cheers Artful
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WT Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-30-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt comments you will not hear at the 3-30-03 wt study
february 15, 2003. wts quotes will be in red; reviewers comments in black or in parentheses.
why observe the lords evening meal?.
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artful
Blondie: that's a great quote, especially in light of the ever-increasing 'Remnant'. I'm going to look that article up about the evidence of the last days.
jgnat: Great comments about the foot washing cerimonies...ROTFLMAO!!! Incidentally, you may want to point out to your honey that the JW's actually don't observe this sacrament as Jesus commanded, for he said:
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall too much eating and drinking taking place at ANY Memorial observance I attended in the past! (although I'm sure you have pointed this out many times!)
Cheers
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Should the 'other sheep' partake? An 'alien resident' parallel
by artful inanswer: christ's body.
answer: christ's blood.
answer: the new covenant.
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artful
Nowisee: Due to the WTS propaganda that I swallowed for so many years, I too struggled with this issue. That's great to hear you have realized the invitation to partake applies to everyone.
jgnat: Thanks for your kind words! I too find the nonsense in the current WT study articles to be absolute 'pabulum' and completely unsupported by scripture.
Huxley: I'm with you on that one! Due to the insipid colour of the wine that they had been passing around every April, my wife took it upon herself to supply the wine at the 'Memorial' during the previous two years. However, after our studies together over the past year or so, she will not be offering this year!
Gumby: You are bang on with your assessment! I had an in depth discussion with one of my wife's friends from the hall (and her unbelieving husband) early last year, and her husband made exactly the same comment. There is no way that anyone (in their right mind - as you say) would come up with a 'two classes' theory simply by reading of the NT.
Cheers
Artful -
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WT Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-30-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt comments you will not hear at the 3-30-03 wt study
february 15, 2003. wts quotes will be in red; reviewers comments in black or in parentheses.
why observe the lords evening meal?.
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artful
Thank you for these comments Blondie - this series of articles is very sickening.
It's great to hear that you will really be observing the occasion this year, and not just participating in the annual plate and glass pass! Although my wife will be going and I will not (only my second time in 30 years - I missed last year as well), we have decided to observe this occasion together at home when she returns. Your comment summed up my feelings about this perfectly:
"It will be the first time I will really have my heart into the event".
Thanks
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Should the 'other sheep' partake? An 'alien resident' parallel
by artful inanswer: christ's body.
answer: christ's blood.
answer: the new covenant.
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artful
As many are aware, the WTS teaches that the 'other sheep' are not in the New Covenant, and should not partake of the body and blood of Christ. In support of their 'two classes' doctrine, the WTS also likes to parallel these 'other sheep' to the 'alien residents' who joined with the nation of Israel.
However, an investigation of the 'alien residents' without the assistance of the WTS, reveals some interesting facts that could be paralleled to the 'other sheep'.
Enjoy, and as always, I appreciate any comments.Cheers
Artful
____________Who partook of the manna? Answer: The 'alien residents' Numbers 11
4 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, "If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost-also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!"
Who drank from the rock-mass? Answer: The 'alien residents' 1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Who partook of the Passover? Answer: The 'alien residents' Exodus 12
48 "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat
of it. 49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."
Who were under the Law Covenant? Answer: The 'alien residents' Exodus 12
49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."__________
What did the manna represent? Answer: Christ's body. John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
What did the water from the rock-mass symbolize? Answer: Christ's blood. 1 Corinthians 10
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
What did the Passover foreshadow? Answer: The Lord's Evening Meal and Jesus sacrifice. 1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast–as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
What did the Law Covenant foreshadow? Answer: The New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
__________
ConclusionIf the 'alien residents' are symbolic of the 'other sheep', it would seem obvious from the scriptures above, that since the alien residents;
1. partook of the manna - which symbolized Jesus' body,
2. partook of the water from the rock-mass - which symbolized Jesus' blood,
3. participated in the Passover - which foreshadowed Jesus sacrifice and the Lord's Evening Meal, and,
4. were under the Law Covenant,
then the 'other sheep' should; 1. partake of Jesus' body, 2. partake of Jesus' blood, 3. participate in the Lord's Evening Meal, and, 4. be part of the New Covenant. -
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All About Jesus Christ
by UnDisfellowshipped intruth book (1981), page 52:.
of the resurrection to heavenly life, the bible says: it is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.
*** the watchtower, march 15th 1954 issue, page 187 ***.
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artful
UD: Some great information here for those who are willing to take the time. I would like to add a scripture regarding praying to Jesus:
________
Just the other night I was reading the account in Acts where Mathias was chosen to replace Judas. Here are a couple of verses that struck me as interesting:
Acts1:
21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."Three things jump out at me:
1. They have just referred to the "Lord Jesus".
2. They then pray to the "Lord" to ask which one he has chosen.
3. The original twelve were "chosen" by Jesus.
Since the "Lord Jesus" chose the original twelve, and they proceed to pray to the "Lord", it would make sense to me that they were petitioning Jesus regarding a replacement and not the Father.
This leads me to believe that in Acts 1:24 the disciples are praying to Jesus.Cheers
Artful -
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Remembering the Truth
by ScoobySnax ini have no argument left in me, and no desire to fight really.
when i was inactive i used to look at ex-jws with placard boards outside assemblies or conventions, i knew these people existed even if they were a bit "wacky".
i always used to wonder why these people did this, and to be honest i didn't like them, they looked creepy stood there with their flip charts outside a stadium.
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artful
Well said Sanddigger!
SS: Your fondness for the 'Truth' reminds me of myself many years ago. A time, when I wasn't active in the congregation, but I knew that someday I should, and would come back into the 'Truth'. I had fond memories of the friends I had made throughout my teenage years, and all of my family were in the 'Truth'. In my mind, it was really inevitable that I would return. So eventually, I did. As my dear Mum was fond of saying "You can leave the 'Truth' but the 'Truth' never really leaves you."
Of course when I did return, armed with my 'Truth' mentality, I never really investigated what I was learning. It had already been drilled into my head for many years that this was the 'Truth'. After my baptism, over time, the more I studied the Bible with the WTS, the more I found I could not just 'wait on Jehovah' (read: WTS) to answer the many questions that I had. The answers I received were just not scriptural. Eventually, I had to ask myself who I was following? What was this 'Truth' that I was so fond of. Was it the 'truth' about Christ, or was it my family, my friends, and the feeling of acceptance that I got when I went along with the masses?
Gumby said it very well (to paraphrase): "If you are still a dub at heart, then you need to learn more."
Maybe I'm wrong in saying this SS, but from your comments it sounds like you have never experienced the 'ugliness' that results from the Watchtower Societies' teachings. Things like shunning, marking, disfellowshiping, the cold treatment of people who are inactive, irregular, unbalanced, etc. If you had, you may understand the serious damage that has been inflicted on so many people by the WTS, and you may not be as quick to remember the 'Truth' so fondly.
I hope you find peace.
Cheers
Artful -
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In Case You Have Ears to Hear... But Have Not Yet Heard...
by AGuest in(simon, please forgive me... and if you can, accommodate me... as i have not yet surpassed my new post "limit" for this day.
to the household of god, israel, that is on jw.com, and all those who 'go with' them:
may you have peace!
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artful
AGuest: Thank you for taking the time to put togther this information. I am currently assembling a similar commentary, and very much enjoyed reading your expressions. I paticularily appreciated your point regarding those who were 'alien residents' with the nation of Israel who ALL ate the manna, drank from the rock-mass, celebrated the Passover, were under the Law Covenant, etc. The scriptures in Numbers and Exodus, and 1 Corinthians certainly illustrate that those with them ate the manna, celebrated the Passover, were under law, etc. This information was very helpful to me, as a JW had recently suggested to me that the 'alien residents' were not under the law covenant (supporting the idea that the 'great crowd' are not under the NC) and these scriptures certainly help to prove otherwise!
Thank you for pointing out the scripture in Matthew 23:13. It really provides a very powerful parallel to the WTS! And I enjoyed your point that: "There is no 'authority' by which ANY man can 'shut up the kingdom', for there is only ONE 'door'... and ONE 'doorkeeper'"
Cheers
Artful