Posts by artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph:
Just to clarify what your are saying, I would like to sum up my understanding of your point of view by paraphrasing your following two statements:
"Joseph answers: Visions and signs are of no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years. Such visions do not alter such facts but simply illustrate them for us. They are not any more literal than the trees growing in this heaven or the city itself are literal." and
"Joseph answers: Literal discussions by our Lord are proof and if you have such proof please offer it."

Your contention seems to be that any mention of human ascension to heaven (even by Jesus - as quoted by John in Revelation, or Paul) outside of the 4 gospels is not a "literal discussion by our Lord" and is therefore not acceptable as scriptural proof of our possible ascension to heaven? Is this as an accurate representation of your belief?

If so, I respect you view, however, I would have to take issue with your reasoning. First of all "literal discussions by our Lord" is really an oxymoron since almost all of Jesus words are spoken in parable. That being the case, anything attributed to him could be taken by you to be a "representation" of something and not literal. For instance, I would use Jesus' illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man as proof that Jesus' taught that some would ascend to heaven. However, you could refute it by simply saying that this is merely an illustration. I would then say that Jesus parables always used things that the crowds could relate to and understand. Jesus would certainly not have "made up" an illustration that he knew to be "completely false", or "without any basis in reality". To do so, would of course have confused the crowd and put into question his integrity. My contention is that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality.

The writings of Paul and others in the NT (as originally quoted above), point to a "heavenly" reward, and I don't believe that these can ALL be dismissed with the "heaven = God" idea. When viewed in context, they do seem to indicate that Paul believed that he and his fellow Christians pressed toward the goal of "heavenly" citizenship. Also, the issue of sitting down with Christ on his throne (which according to scripture is in heaven - see above) seems to support this idea of "being" in a heavenly place. I would think that to ignore these texts, or to pass them all off as simply "visions and signs" is really not giving all the scriptures their due consideration.

Your idea that these scriptures are of "no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years" worries me because it seems to suggest two things:
1. The beliefs expressed by the NT writers which are outside of statements directly attributed to Jesus could be discarded as accessory, and not necessarily accurate or literal.

2. The Jewish doctrine of heaven, earth and the Kingdom of God as understood by the OT writers (disciples, Martha, etc.) is the same as that of the NT writers. Or, where the Jewish doctrine is not the same as the NT writers (as indicated by the scriptures I quoted), the Jewish understanding takes precedence over the beliefs of the writers of the NT because of the length of it's existence.

Artful

Edited by - artful on 1 January 2003 14:23:30

17

Need Help with Info Sheet

by Nickey in

my somewhat "inactive" mother says she's getting the feeling that i'm losing my faith in the wts and has asked me to explain to her.

problem is, i locked up because it's been so recent and my mother can be quite intimidating.

she's a "see it to believe it" person and has suggested that i show her proof.

artful

UnDisfellowshipped: You have compiled quite a list there. I like your approach - using the WT quotes followed by applicable scriptural references. Great info...keep it coming!!
Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Friday: I understand your reasoning that "those rulers who had not receivedthemark ofthe beast on their foreheads (Re 20:4) are none other than theones who hadGod's name written on their foreheads, namely the 144,000(Re 14:1)."

However, by the same token I could reason that: "those of the Great Crowd who had also not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads (since they did not receive God's wrath - see point #1 in my previous post which you ignored)may also have God's name written on their foreheads."

You are correct in saying that there are no specific scriptures that actually state that the GC have the mark of Jehovah, but, by reasoning it out, it would seem that you are either "marked" as being with God or with the beast; there is no scripture to indicate any "middle gound". Besides, just having the mark of Jehovah does not (by scripture) automatically equate to being a ruler with Christ.

Most importantly, my point here was not to demonstrate that the Great Crowd have the name of Jehovah stamped on their foreheads. Rather, my point here is to try to make a connection between the 144K and rulership. My contention is still that there is not enough "plainly stated" scriptural evidence to support this claim. To use your own reasoning: Show me a scripture that plainly states that the 144K are the ones given "authority to rule" in Rev 20:4. Without this, the conclusion you make to is quite a leap!

Cheers
Artful

Edited by - artful on 24 December 2002 11:22:14

Edited by - ARTFUL on 24 December 2002 11:23:39

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph:
You have some interesting ideas. However, since what you are suggesting is very new to me I would like to take the time to properly address some of your reasoning that I find curious. Unfortunately, since today is Christmas Eve, I will be spending time with my family for the next two or three days. When I return, I will take some time to post a proper reply to your comments.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas!
Artful

15

Man 0 - Jehovah 1

by PopeOfEruke in

what really started cheesing me off with the wt and awake magazines while i was still an active jw was the constant propaganda based on man versus jehovah.

it was as if there was a great tug-of-war being propogated between man and god by the wt society.

everything that man made was constantly criticised and belittled, while whatever jehovah made was so great!

artful

Yadirf: thanks for the compliments! I would actually take your comment a step further and say that I am biased toward any "scriptural" theology that is presented to me. I guess after being subject to false teachings for so many years it has made me cautious. I prefer to test for myself the scriptural accuracy of anything that I hear coming from the WTS or any other source.

Just curious, do you speak to your house-to-house calls the way you speak to the people on this board?

Merry Christmas!
Fartful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: I appreciate and agree with much of your reasoning...however...

I don't really believe that the terms "heaven" and "God" can be used interchangeably. Just because Matthew (for a specific reason) used the expression "Kingdom of Heaven" to represent the "Kingdom of God", it does not follow that ANY use of the word heaven or heavenly by other writers would be meant to refer to a Godly-state not a location or destination.

I agree with your reasoning that being born again of spirit does not necessarily indicate that we would become spirit creatures in the future. I do think that being born of spirit although not altering our nature as humans, does alter our perspective from material to spiritual. This idea of altering our perspective is one that both Jesus and Paul preached (as quoted in my original scriptures above).

Your comments regarding Jesus' sayings are what I expected....essentially that he didn't specifically say we go to heaven but rather that our hope comes from there. And that he didn't say we would be angels, but would share their characteristics. I would have to agree with your reasoning here, and that on their own these specific texts don't prove that we go to heaven.

Unfortunately, this is where you stopped your explanations. I would suggest that the scriptures in Revelation that refer to the 144K and great crowd being present in heaven (with God, Jesus and the angels), and the others that I cited pertaining to Paul are the scriptures that present more of a challenge to your ideas (see below):

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ,not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
- Paul says that a Christian's house comes from God (as you have indicated), but then in a separate statement, he points to its location in heaven.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).

Joseph wrote:
"And what will we be doing there alone when our Lord promised to return here to rule?"

The scripture that you cite in Acts 1:11 does indicate that the Lord's return would be in the same manner as his ascension, but does it say that he would then remain on Earth and rule over his subjects from Earth? No! Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:

Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

These scriptures all point to the location of his throne and therefore that of his co-rulers who "sit with him on his throne" to be in heaven. If then EVEN ONE Christian could enter into heaven, the theory that no human could do this (in spirit or human form) would seem be undermined.

Artful

15

Man 0 - Jehovah 1

by PopeOfEruke in

what really started cheesing me off with the wt and awake magazines while i was still an active jw was the constant propaganda based on man versus jehovah.

it was as if there was a great tug-of-war being propogated between man and god by the wt society.

everything that man made was constantly criticised and belittled, while whatever jehovah made was so great!

artful

Well said Pope!
This is a very interesting point. I think the mental tug-of-war you mention is really between the WTS and man! They seek to discredit the efforts of man as feeble and not worth putting our trust in. It seems they fear that to acknowledge the connection that "whatever MAN builds is a CREDIT to God" might lead some to "worship" men! Instead they want their followers to rely on Jehovah (read WTS) for their worship, and come to Jehovah (read WTS) for his (their) superior wisdom. This of course amounts to worship of men anyway because as we know their can be no worship of Jehovah without the FDS to guide us! LOL

Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Friday: I do appreciate the time you spent in explaining your point of view. I also comprehend the argument you present. The reasons that I don't think it very strong are as follows:
1. Not having the mark of the beast doesn't necessarily equate to being rulers with Christ. During the outpouring of God's wrath on those who have the mark of the beast (Rev 14:11, Rev 16:2) by your own WTS theology, the Great Crowd on Earth during this outpouring would certainly not have the mark of the beast, yet they would also certainly not be rulers with Christ.

2. Having the name of Jesus and God on your forehead does not make one a ruler with Christ. By WTS definition (Revelation book pg. 200) these ones are considered "Jehovah's witnesses, his slaves", a name certainly shared by the Great Crowd of non-rulers - who if they don't have the mark of the beast would assumedly have the mark of Jehovah to identify them as "Jehovah's Witnesses" thereby avoiding God's wrath. WTS uses the analogy of JWs being a "marked" people continually.

Therefore, the fact that the 144K are described as having the name of Jesus and God written on their foreheads, and Christ's co-rulers are said not have the name of the beast on their forehead still doesn't make them the same people.

Cheers
Artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: Thanks for your comments. I do understand that these two expressions are interchangeable. Since Matthew was writing to a primarily Jewish audience he would have used the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" out of respect for the Jews who did not write out the word God. Considering this, it would be incorrect to draw the conclusion that the OT faithful have a heavenly destination from these two scriptures alone. However, when considered in combination with Hebrews which refers to a heavenly city prepared for them, it would seem to make sense that the OT men could have a heavenly hope.

Having said that, my argument of the OT faithful having a heavenly hope does assume that you actually believe in a heavenly resurrection, which I can see by your comments you do not. I would like to address the two scriptures you cite to support your belief:

You mention that the only one qualified to go to heaven was Jesus as he was from there and since we are human (born of flesh) we do not qualify. I would agree with this reasoning. However, reading the entire chapter of John 3 in context, wasn't the whole purpose of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus to demonstrate that (as you say) no one born of flesh (man) can enter the Kingdom of God, so therefore we must be born again of Spirit to do so...

John 3: 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Applying this same line of reasoning that flesh (man) cannot enter the Kingdom but that which is born of spirit can; the scripture at 1 Timothy could simply be taken to mean that no man (flesh) could approach God.

I would be genuinely interested to hear your explanation of how the scriptures that refer to heavenly rewards and existence are to be understood. Including the 144K scripture in Revelation where the location seems so clearly to be heaven. Also, both Jesus and Paul many times contrast the superiority of heavenly citizenship with earthly. See:

Matt 6:19,20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Craig and jgnat: thank you for your kind words.

Lefty/Yardif (or whoever your are): I'm afraid if that is all you have to PROVE the connection....I'm less than convinced. Thanks for trying though...woof, woof, LOL!
Cheers
Artful