Posts by artful

32

What does this WT Study Article mean to you???????

by plmkrzy in

below is the entire wt study article from the february 15th wt.

can anyone find any new light or old light renewed?

what does this study article mean to you?

artful

Hi plmkrzy:
here is the link to my post
WT Contradiction - Are the other sheep sons of God?
Cheers
Artful

8

Jesus' body was raised.

by hooberus in

the follwing scriptues are taken from the book of john.. 2:18then answered the jews and said unto him, what sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

2:19jesus answered and said unto them, destroy this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.

2:20then said the jews, forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

I recall that someone on this forum had pointed out that if Jesus physical body was not raised (as the WTS teaches), then the prophecy that Jesus made about raising the "temple of his body" never came true. Therefore, when the WTS teaches that Jesus physical body was not raised, what they are really saying is that Jesus was a false prophet!!
Artful

5

Are the "Other Sheep" heirs to the Kingdom?

by artful in

the watchtower of february 15, 2003 page 19, paragraph 6 under the heading "attending as respectful observers" states:.

"should those now doing good to the remnant of the 144,000 brothers of christ partake of the lord's evening meal?

according to the wts, the "other sheep" are not joint heirs.

artful

The Watchtower of February 15, 2003 page 19, paragraph 6 under the heading "Attending as Respectful Observers" states:
_____________________
"Should those now doing good to the remnant of the 144,000 brothers of Christ partake of the Lord's Evening Meal? No. God has reserved that privilege for individuals he has anointed with holy spirit to be "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18)...Since they are not Jesus' joint heirs with a heavenly hope, they attend the Memorial as respectful observers."
_____________________

According to the WTS, the "other sheep" are NOT joint heirs. However, who are the "heirs" spoken of in this case? They are those who inherit the Kingdom of God. We could then refer to a similar statement made by Jesus regarding those who would "inherit the kingdom":

Matt 25:33-40
34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat;...37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink?....40 And in reply the king will say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."
____________________

According to the WTS explanation of the Sheep and the Goats parable, Christ's "brothers" are the "anointed" and the "sheep" represent the "other sheep" (those who are NOT joint heirs). However, according to the Society's own interpretation of this parable, the "other sheep" are first of all declared righteous by Jesus (a title the WTS reserves for the "anointed"), and secondly and most importantly they are said to be the ones who will "inherit the Kingdom of God". By the Society's own definition wouldn't this make the other sheep "heirs" to the Kingdom and therefore "joint heirs" with Christ?

Any comments?
Cheers
Artful

8

What constitutes a life that pleases God?

by Billygoat in

it's an interesting question i came across with the new book i'm reading: the reflective life by ken gire.

i had the privilege of meeting ken a few years ago at a church retreat.

he was a shy, quiet speaker, with a very unassuming presence.

artful

Great post Billygoat!

Thank you for sharing this...it is very inspiring. He's right, at the end of the day when I'm lying in bed, what makes me personally feel most satisfied is when I have been generous in sharing my love with those around me.
Cheers
Artful

21

WT Contradiction - Are the other sheep sons of God?

by artful in

many are familiar with the countless flip flops and contradictions that can be found in the wt publications of the past (for numerous examples of this see http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com).

however, in reading through the jan 15 and feb 15 wt study articles i believe i have found a "modern day" example of a wts contradictory statement.

it pertains to the status of the "other sheep" as sons of god.. __________.

artful

Many are familiar with the countless flip flops and contradictions that can be found in the WT publications of the past (for numerous examples of this see http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com). However, in reading through the Jan 15 and Feb 15 WT study articles I believe I have found a "modern day" example of a WTS contradictory statement. It pertains to the status of the "other sheep" as sons of God.

__________
In the Watchtower of January 15, 2003 page 14, paragraph 22 under the heading "Maintain Faith in God's Word" it states:
"Jehovah is the Father of spirit-begotten Christians and of their companions with an earthly hope.(Romans 8:15) And faith in our heavenly Father never leads to disappointment."
___________

To encourage the "other sheep" that having faith in God's word does not lead to disappointment, the statement is made that God is the "Father of the other sheep" and the scripture at Romans 8:15 is used to support this. Here is what Romans 8:15 says:
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out" "Abba", Father!

The WT of Jan 15/03 p14 clearly states that God is the Father of both the "anointed" and the other sheep, citing the scripture in Romans 8:15 to support this. The natural conclusion to reach from this paragraph is that since God is their "Father", the other sheep would of course be "sons of God" as seen in Romans 8:15. The article makes no attempt to discourage this conclusion. However, when we compare this statement with the Feb 15/03 WT we see the exact opposite conclusion drawn from this same scripture.

___________
February 15, 2003 page 19, paragraph 6 under the heading "Attending as Respectful Observers" it states:
"Should those now doing good to the remnant of the 144,000 brothers of Christ partake of the Lord's Evening Meal? No. God has reserved that privilege for individuals he has anointed with holy spirit to be "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18)...Since they are not Jesus' joint heirs with a heavenly hope, they attend the Memorial as respectful observers."

In paragraph 7 they go on to quote the same scripture in Romans 8:14,15 (regarding being God's sons) as applying ONLY to the anointed.
____________

Since the WTS has long taught that the "other sheep" are not sons of God, is the suggestion that God is the Father of the other sheep (and they are therefore his sons) an error on the part of the WT from Jan 15/03? Or, is this an example of the Society creating ambiguity concerning one of their more distasteful doctrines - namely that we are not all God's sons, only 8,800 people on earth are?

It's no wonder JWs are confused about issues like this. First, they are given an article to study in January which makes them feel good about their relationship with God as their loving Father, and themselves presumably his sons. The next month the WTS lets the axe fall and tells the flock that they are most certainly NOT God's sons and how dare they think such a thing! Very sad.

Any comments?
Cheers
Artful

32

What does this WT Study Article mean to you???????

by plmkrzy in

below is the entire wt study article from the february 15th wt.

can anyone find any new light or old light renewed?

what does this study article mean to you?

artful

Thanks for posting this article plmkrzy! This has drawn my attention to a very obvious contradiction regarding the "sons of God" when comparing this article to a Jan 15/03 study article. I will be posting this observation in a new thread entitled "WT contradiction - are the other sheep sons of God or not"

For what it's worth, here's my take on the "should you partake" question:

Our physical baptism is said to be an outward symbol of our dedication to God (and Christ). There is no restriction as to which "class" of Christian should be baptized. In fact to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a direct command of Jesus (Matt 28).

To parallel this:

The physical (symbolic) partaking of the body and blood of Christ is an outward symbol of our recognition that Christ is the Messiah and our acceptance of him as our personal redeemer. Jesus, and his disciples put no restrictions as to which "class" of Christian could partake of his body and blood. In fact to "keep doing this in remembrance of me" was a DIRECT COMMAND from Jesus! To the first century Christians the partaking of Christ's body and blood signified their acceptance of him as the Christ, and their faith in him as their personal savior.

So regardless of whether we consider ourselves part of a heavenly or earthly class, the outward symbol of baptism and the partaking of Christ's' blood and body are direct commands from Jesus which are to be carried out by all Christians.

Cheers

Artful

6

Jesus temptatation by Satan...a JW conumdrum

by logansrun in

some liberal christians view the charachter of satan as being a symbol for the evil within humans which tempts us all.

the jws will often point to jesus being tempted by satan as being proof that this is an unreasonable explanation since "jesus was perfect and he could not have evil thoughts in him.

" now this raises a conumdrum for a similar, but related matter.. just what can a perfect person do or not do when it comes to "sinful" thoughts?

artful

Some very interesting comments here Bradley! If the JW's teach that because of Jesus' perfect state he did not have any "evil thoughts" in him to cause him to sin, then by extension they would have to teach that Adam was also not capable of sin. I think one example of an "evil" or sinful thought by Jesus (assuming that an "evil thought" is something that goes against God's will) would be his prayer for his Father to "allow this cup to pass" from him. This thought originated with Jesus and was obviously not something that was in line with God's will.

Since there was a temptation of Christ by Satan then by definition Jesus must have had free will and the possibility to succumb to this temptation - whether it originated within him or externally. If there was no possibility of Jesus succumbing to any temptation (because he was perfect) then Satan's offer could not really be considered a temptation at all. I would suggest that they very fact something could tempt Jesus indicates that it is possible for a "perfect" being to entertain evil thoughts and therefore sin.

Good point about free will. I have often wondered how a perfect "utopian" society could exist as long as there is free will. Because as long as we have free will there is the possibility of sin. However, the Bible does speak about those raised in the Kingdom of God as being not just "immortal" (which by definition does not indicate that one is it not "capable" of sin - but rather refers to being exempt from death), but also "incorruptible" - which by definition does mean that they are not capable of sin. This leads to another very interesting question...does being "incorruptible" (and therefore sinless) mean that one must give up their free will?

Also, there is the question of why didn't God just create all of us "immortal" and "incorruptible" in the first place?! Not that I necessarily buy into this, but some have suggested that after suffering and proving our ourselves to God in an imperfect form, we would then "fully" appreciate a perfect incorruptible state when we receive it as our reward.

Cheers Artful

56

ADAM AND EVE CREATED SAME YEAR says Jehovah's channel:

by garybuss in

adam and eve created same year says jehovah's channel:.

insight book #1 p. 772 eve .

when adam was 130 years old, eve gave birth to a son whom she called seth, saying: "god has appointed another seed in place of abel, because cain killed him.

artful

Gary: There is a very strong allusion made to this idea in last weeks WT study (January 1, 2003 p18). After quoting Jesus words at Luke 12:40 "At an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming." they go on to state: "We can derive another lesson from Jesus' illustration. Although the slaves did not know the hour when their master would arrive, apparently, they knew the night. It would be difficult to deep awake all that night if they thought that their master might come some other night. But no, they knew which night he was coming, and that gave them strong incentive to stay awake. In a rather similar way, Bible prophecies clearly reveal that we are living in the time of the end; but they do not tell us the day or the hour of the end itself."

Cheers Artful

4

Eternal Life through Jesus - When did it start?

by anti-absolutism in

ok this one might seem odd to some people... as christians, (i personally am not sure if i want to consider myself christian yet) is the belief that, since christ gave us the opportunity to have eternal life, or an immortal soul, that it was only after his death that we had the opportunity?

in other words did the people who died before his death not have the opprtunity and therefore are still just dead?.

your response is appreciated, as brief as possible, please.

artful

Good question - to offer a "brief" answer:

The scriptures teach that ALL (not only those who died "after" Christ) would be eligible for eternal life. For instance, Jesus specifically mentioned Abraham, Moses, and Elijah being present in the "Kingdom of God". Paul in Hebrews 11:13-16 also refers to the faithful men of old as having citizenship in the heavenly kingdom. Of course, all of these ones would have already died, so technically they would not have "everlasting life" until after their resurrection.

Cheers
Artful

18

When did Jesus become The Christ?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society says that jesus became "the christ" at his baptism: .

"holy spirit - the force behind the coming new order" book (1975), page 90: .

"when did this jesus become actually 'christ the lord'?

artful

Very good post UD!
Considering Jesus' pre-human existence, I could never understand this WTS theory. The scripture in 1 Cor 10 that Brummie mentions really helps solidify that Jesus was the Christ before birth. I was not aware of this NWT discrepancy (another one for the list!).

Your idea of the Logos being appointed by God as the Christ in Gen 3:15 makes a lot of sense. I have never thought of it in that way before, thanks for mentioning this idea.

Cheers
Artful