Left_Field

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Posts by Left_Field

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  189

  The "What If" Game

  by copsec in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  i ask a question, the next person answers my question and then asks their own and so on.

  so i will start off with....... .

  what if animals could talk?

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  Left_Field

  There'd be no line-up and Watchtower would become prepaid subscription.

  What if you had 12 hours to live and $25,000 to spend?
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  29

  BUCK ROGERS on SCI-FI now

  by Leolaia in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  right now they're showing old buck rogers episodes on the sci-fi channel.... .

  these are classic!!!!

  whatever happened to gill gerard?

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  Left_Field

  Yes... the Flying Bikes and invisible fighters!!

  Didn't they steal that idea of making their fighters invisible in the park later in Star Trek - The Voyage Home???

  PS Get your humour now with the movie quote... wondered how you could be so "on the ball" and slip up on something like recalling a movie title!! hehehe

  Nick
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  20

  Find the error (quiz)

  by Schizm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the image below depicts the "manger scene".

  if you look close, and use a little imagination, you can make out the "three wise men" there on the left, and joseph and mary on the right.

  of course the brightest, pulsating "star" above them all is the "star of bethlehem".

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  Left_Field

  The bible doesn't state how many "wise men" or "magi" ACTUALLY visited Jesus. The number is calculated by the number of gifts given. Another assumption made popular.

  It also doesn't say how many of these wise men visited Herod on their way to Bethlehem.

  Nick

  Was I too late? Did someone win the prize already??? *grin*
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  29

  BUCK ROGERS on SCI-FI now

  by Leolaia in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  right now they're showing old buck rogers episodes on the sci-fi channel.... .

  these are classic!!!!

  whatever happened to gill gerard?

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  Left_Field

  The Princess and the Dwarf?

  Ingo Montoya was a character out of The Princess Bride - just spotted this post while I was lurking through other very interesting posts you are making :-)

  Nick
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  21

  Why Did El Shaddai become Jehovah? Attention Leolaia

  by jst2laws in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  dear leolaia

  from reading your research, which is wonderful, i'm confused about what moses was trying to say in exodus.

  and god went on to speak to moses and to say to him: ?i am jehovah.

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  Left_Field

  Yhwh doesn't mean "the Eternal One".

  Let me rephrase that. It "translates to 'eternal one' " YHWH is a tetragram not a pun. The Hewbrew language is richer than ours - you have to try to see what is meant by that. When you say 'I am' it is in the present tense which is an eternal tense so to speak it has no end. We are always in the present. Grammatical gymnastics with Hebrew is not my strong point but I do see the obvious pun in that sense.

  Tetragram: [from the greek "tetra' four and "gramma" letter].

  Pun: A play on words, sometimes on different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense or sound of different words.

  I cannot see where you get your hebrew pun explanation other than using western alphabet to explain away a hebrew text based on western alphabet puns?

  My explanation stands as far as I can see with exception to my definition being misworded.

  Question: Do you find anything else in my post wrong?

  Show me scriptural examples where the pun is in play through the process of it's adoption through to it's usage. If you can state that there is a pun it must first have been conceived and used as such with a statement to that effect. I don't know of anywhere that the bible does this.

  The ball is in your court :o)

  Nick
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  7

  Should the clergy preach politics?

  by badboy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i understand from my jw neighbour that he seems to think it is wrong that some clergymen should be urging their congregations not to vote for the bnp.

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  Left_Field

  This puzzles me. Where are they getting this head knowledge of what the clergy are doing?

  Are they sending out spies to see what clergy are doing in their [the clergy's] church?

  Are they taking their information from tabloid press?

  It's either here-say of press "EXCLUSIVES" type of evidence [which by the way has been thrown out on numerous occasions when it was related to WTS DIRECTLY] that such scenarios are being played out and if such cases

  [as there probably are, just based on the laws of probability] do occur it would be a very small percentage.

  I could hazzard a guess that there are less clergymen per quota doing that than Bethel brothers accused of unhealthy conduct down on the farm... Remember that STORY?? I can count more clergymen than Bethel brothers so I could be really close to something there??? *grin*

  Nick
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  7

  What is the WT fell?

  by paulE in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what would be the consequences to society in general?

  would there be enough psychotrist to handle 6,000,000 new patients?.

  would office buildings be scrambling to find new janitorial services, since all the "pioneer janitorial service" operators would find real jobs?.

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  Left_Field

  You'd have 9 million [?] new members of society.
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  21

  Why Did El Shaddai become Jehovah? Attention Leolaia

  by jst2laws in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  dear leolaia

  from reading your research, which is wonderful, i'm confused about what moses was trying to say in exodus.

  and god went on to speak to moses and to say to him: ?i am jehovah.

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  Left_Field

  I thought I'd throw is a slightly different slant on the whole name of God... here goes

  Exodus 6:3

  NKJV: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

  Latin Vulgate: qui apparui Abraham Isaac et Iacob in Deo omnipotente et nomen meum Adonai non indicavi eis

  Here, we have a clear understanding that God Almighty [in red] appears as Deo which translates to "God". We see then [bold black] that Adonai is given to the name Jehovah. In hebrew God's name is JHWH which when translated means the "eternal one".

  Exodus 3:14 "I AM hath sent me unto you" we know what it means as reference to his name and how the name came about, namely JHWH [which when pronounced is not Jahweh but more like Agh-Yah]. "I AM" not only is a statement of the present tense it cannot age and become past tense [I WAS for example] or get ahead of us and be future tense [I WILL BE as an example] therefore it is eternal in it's definition as well as the name God wanted to be known by at that time -- interesting the way a translation actually fits it's original meaning here on more than one level.

  Back to the point...

  Isaiah 24:6

  NKJV: Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH [is] everlasting strength:

  Latin Vulgate: sperastis in Domino in saeculis aeternis in Domino Deo forti in perpetuum

  Now the NKJV has differed from the Latin and uses Jehovah instead of God where Deo is found. I can search more but I'm sure this is a tried and trusted method that can be disclaimed if one disbelieves the validity of the source. The name Jehovah was injected into the bible by a Catholic Priest from Latin Vulgate in 1270. This gives us another catch 22 issue. Either there was an error in the translation and it was misplaced in that line [which makes it work of a fallible man who may have made more errors] or it was not supposed to have been done whereby someone took on the responsibility of assuming that name for us and still being fallible made an arroneous entry. Either way, in straight translation it has been modified to read more than it should.

  As if the word within the NWT has not ben discredited enough, think on this:

  1. NWT First Edition [1950] with reference to Exodus 3:14 & John 8:58 [remembering my statement earlier of the present tense of I AM]

  Notations of Correction on the appropriate pages read "Because of the 'perfect indefinite tense' in the Greek, [Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58], "I AM" should read "I have been".

  This was kept in for 15 years and then removed when pointed out that the perfect indefinite tense does not exist What reason was there for the statement and what does this say for the Greek Scholars at Bethel? Liars or inadequate? You decide.

  2. 125 years prior to the arrival of Jesus of Nazareth were a group of scholars known as the "70 scholars". Among other things they translated the name of God as spoken to Moses at the burning bush into Greek as "I AM".

  Jesus of Nazareth accepted and used these translations in his teachings. He HIMSELF accepted this translation. So we know that this was correct for both Jesus and his Apostles / Disciples.

  And on a final note,

  What did Jesus mean in John 8:58 when he said "... before Abraham came to existence (before Abraham was), I am."

  Then in :59 the Jews wanted to stone him. Stoning usually occurs when you go against God in such cases as blasphemy. Calling himself a servant of God is not blasphemy. Even calling himself "a god" as did many of the rulers of the time, wasn't blasphemous in the eyes of the Jews so what did he mean when he made that statement and was in the midst of an angry mob about to stone him?

  Nick
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  32

  June 1st Watchtower - The brothers are tiring out

  by truthseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  here's a little gem from the june 1st 2004, wt.

  second study article: blessed are those who give glory to god.

  para 7 .

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  Left_Field

  --- Satan's attack in the forms of bans and persecutions.

  I love the way they can slap the "Satan" bumper sticker on anything they want.

  --- observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus." Jesus' "other sheep" too experience

  As proven many times, there are no "other sheep" that's just a total out and out lie. So, then, where does that leave them? They are either Christian or non-Christian. If they believe in Christ being a diety then they are Christian otherwise they are not and they will perish according to God's Law.

  I personally believe they are not bearing witness to anything other that WTS. That's not what a true witnessing christian is asked to do. We [practicing christians, or those trying to keep with the practice] are suppsoed to share Jesus with those who want to understand or learn. Missionaries, Monasteries, Bible Classes, Churches there are just too many more to mention that are structured. Then there are the unstructured like friends, family, preachers, pastors, priests, monks, nuns etc etc etc. What do they all have in common? They only use the Bible to teach the Word. The Word as we know became flesh and was Jesus. So in essence the line:

  --- observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus." Jesus' "other sheep" too experience

  : is another total out and out lie because they are not teaching the Word [bearing witness to Jesus] they are in fact bearing witness to the Watchtower magazines.

  Finally, spiritual enrichment is that of filling your heart with God's Spirit not scaring people by saying they WILL be saved and that they are not saved and that only by reading doctrinal propaganda will they be saved.

  I like to remind myself at times like this that "Fear" is not of God. When it is meant to be God's word but instead it is one that tries to turn me to the organisation with fears I can claim the statement "Get thee behind me Satan!" For if fear is not from God where else can it come from?

  Nick
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  23

  New to the forum and willing to discuss everything with you

  by Left_Field in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello folks,.

  i decided to start a new topic and introduce myself.

  then rattle on about a few things too.. bare with the long intro.... i have already made a couple of posts and before i go on any further i decided to introduce myself to you all.. my name is nick and i live in canada.

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  Left_Field

  Hi family_man thanks for ther welcome... and glad I had something useful for you with the link.

  And thanks for the continued welcomes :o)

  As for the spiritism within the WTS doctrine it runs along these lines [I was corrected with my mis-representation of NWT by Alan -- thanks again Alan].

  In 1923 a catholic priest [ Johannes Greber ] became intereted in communicating with spirit beings. These beings often spoke with him through his wife, a spirit medium and informed him that the Bible was full of errors.

  He was a known spiritist and he authored "Communication with the spirit world of God". In this book he claims that spirits helped him translate the New Testament and he claimed that the words, as they were being translated, passed before his eyes. He goes on to talk about who Christ was, by claiming he was one of Gods many sons etc etc [ see my previous post for more and the F. Franz statement in court ].

  This basically makes Greber an accultist. and If you work with one to help with the writings of your own doctrine then you are as much as occultist by association as the occultist helping you.

  Here's a link to associations of the word occultist to give a broader meaning of the word in today's modern terminology:

  http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List%20of%20occultists

  1 John 4:1 Warns about false prophets as they are in the world.

  We know that Greber is an occultist [even though he wasn't proved to belong to an occult group he practiced that very art that would be often attempted but failed by so many wannabes].

  , issue of The Watchtower magazine contained nearly a full page on Greber and his Spiritism. The Watchtower admits. "Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation." (Watchtower 2/15/1956) Yet, despite the knowledge that Greber was a spiritist, the Society continued to cite him as a authority in support of its translation of John 1:1 (see the 1961 edition of the New World Translation).

  So why did they quote him? Because they could find no one else that would render John 1:1 the way their own translation did.

  Books where Greber is quoted by the Watchtower.

  AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING Page 1669 THE WORD

  AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING Page 1134 MEMORIAL TOMBS

  MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS Page 489 "A GOD"

  THE WATCHTOWER Page 554 THE WORD

  THE WATCHTOWER Page 640 NO RESURRECTION

  THE WATCHTOWER Page 231 NO RESURRECTION

  THE WORD Page 5 "A GOD"

  They actually can claim "Without wresting Greek grammar, a translator can render ...Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses ...Compare the New World Translation." (Watchtower, October 15, 1975, p. 640).

  Examples: "Similar is the reading of a former Roman Catholic priest-: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. "' Watchtower, , p. 544; "The Word"--Who Is He? According to John, 1963 ed., p. 5.

  Many WT issues claimed Johannes Greber's Bible was, "Based on the Oldest Manuscripts." That speaks of approval!

  More approval "Modern translations and Greek grammar make the meaning clear..." Make Sure of All Things, 1965, p. 489. Again they were recommending Greber and his book, and as usual claiming to have the last word on Greek grammar.

  Aid to Bible Understanding 1971 pp.1134 and 1669 "A translation by a former catholic priest. Johannes Greber (1937 ed.) renders the second appearance' a of the word "god" In the sentence as "a god." And The Four Gospels-A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey (second ed., 1947),

  says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. When he was in the beginning with God all things were created through him: without him came no created thing into This Word or Logos was God's only direct creation, the only-begotten son of God, and evidently the close associate of God to whom God was speaking when he said: "Let us make man In our image, according to our likeness." (Gen. 1:26) Hence John continued, saying: "This one was in the beginning with God. All things came Into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." -John 1:2, 3.

  How could the influence of demons be held up as a fine translation by anyone except those in the occult? The Watchtower does not call it a "paraphrase " but implies that it is the correct literal translation of the text.

  WATCHTOWER, Oct.15 1975 They are still using Greber. Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus' death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: "Tomb: were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."-Compare the Translation.

  THE WATCHTOWER - Insight on the News- the Watchtower is still using Greber to prove their doctrine. Referring to a Guatamalan earthquake that affected gravesites?"A report in the Bible, as translated by Johannes Greber, says that when Jesus died, "the earth quaked, and the rocks were shattered. Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed b y the place on their way back to the city." Hence, rather than a resurrection, as some Bible translations imply, there appears to have been merely an exposure of the dead to observers, as in . Matt. 27:51-53."(Watchtower April 15, 1976, p. 231)

  What the Watchtower failed to tell its followers and hides from them is that Johannes Greber was a spiritist who translated the New Testament through his spirit-medium wife. According to Greber, the Lord's Prayer (Matt. 6:9-10) begins like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy spirit world come to us. Thy will be done in the beyond and on earth." (Greber p. 6), Greber's spiritism is condemned by God's Word in Deuteronomy 18:9-14, and many other places.

  The Watchtower, on page 624 wrote, Since spiritism is condemned by God, it becomes obvious that a person appealing to spiritism for knowledge or help is not appealing to God. He is looking to a source opposed to God...' (WT Oct. 15 1977)

  So if Spirits that lie helped Greber in his translation, and the WT promotes the same inspired text (as they used his), then what does this mean? This is not just a side issue but the issue; the nature of Christ.

  Do we trust God's Book "translated" by a man who had Satan's influence? How good are these bibles?

  Greber also influenced the WT in other areas - Jesus Christ is a created being, (Communication with the Spirit World p. 301-J.W?s "Aid to Bible Understanding "p. 918). Christ's body was not resurrected. (CSWp.385- J.W.?s "things in which It is Impossible For God to Lie" p. 355). Body of Jesus was dematerialized. (CSWp.385- J.W.?s "Time Is At Hand" p. 129).

  You can no longer order Greber's New Testament from Johannes Greber Memorial Foundation, so you will have to personally check the WT organization. Personal cheque or credic card??

  Regards,

  Nick