Maybe the reason is that your pic doesn't get displayed, Englishman... At least I can't see it.
Pole
Posts by Pole
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Pole
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27
The Nativity Traditions of Jesus
by Leolaia inthe nativity traditions in the synoptic gospels are interesting for their reliance on ot exegetical traditions.
most of the narratives of jesus in the gospels are based on such interpretive traditions, modeling events of jesus' life on various texts of the greek ot.
jesus' multiplication of the loaves (cf.
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Pole
The Gospels are hardly "simultaneous accounts of the same events": although there is much variation in the detail of theories regarding their formation, it is pretty obvious that they are not independent from one another: Matthew and Luke are clearly tributary to an early version of Mark and another ("Q") document, and John apparently creates most of his material ex nihilo. At every stage of the process a conscious literary development is involved (and unconscious influences as well). What "events" there might be in the background remains an open question.
I don't think "simultaneous" necessarilly means independent. At least it wasn't what I meant. What I had in mind was that because different authors of the Gospels reported similar "facts and events" (either by copying each other or using the same sources of "inspiration") their "stream of consciousness" couldn't have generated exactly the same symbols, archetypes and allegories when they mentioned a miracle which had been already described in another Gospel. At least not in the sense described by Derrida. So I guess the question of a conscious effort and systematicity remains valid.
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How do JWs from other countries view the USA based Watchtower?
by frankiespeakin ini often wondered how those of other natonalities who eventually become jws view taking orders from a usa based religion.
did it bother you that foreigners were making rules that you had to live by?
did the people that you met at the doors every bring up the fact that this was a religion run by foreigners?
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Pole
frank
I wonder if the fact that the WT is USA based will eventually work against further growth in other contries.
At least it won't help them stimulate growth for much longer.
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They say they don't celebrate Xmas, but...???
by JH inevery year, on dec 25th, witnesses in our area gather at a book study group, and they have a dinner together.
although they say that they don't celebrate christmas, why do they gather on dec 25th like catholics do and share dinner together?
i'm sure that neighbors think that it's a christmas gathering.. i know that there isn't any christmas decorations there, or gifts being given, but i find it odd, that every year, some book study will organize a dinner on december 25th.
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Pole
At least in Poland same goes for the New Year's Eve celebrations.
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The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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Pole
To simplify what pole said you argue that your belief is not remotely supernatural and because it is not supernatural then it must be true, and supernatural.
Darn it XQ, and I was trying to sound so smart!
Either that or pole went over my head.
Well, at least you didn't get hit. Pole
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27
The Nativity Traditions of Jesus
by Leolaia inthe nativity traditions in the synoptic gospels are interesting for their reliance on ot exegetical traditions.
most of the narratives of jesus in the gospels are based on such interpretive traditions, modeling events of jesus' life on various texts of the greek ot.
jesus' multiplication of the loaves (cf.
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Pole
MS,
I think I could agree with you, but the problem is slightly more complex due to the fact that (as I wrote in the post above) we have simultaneous descriptions of the same events in different gospels.
Pole
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27
The Nativity Traditions of Jesus
by Leolaia inthe nativity traditions in the synoptic gospels are interesting for their reliance on ot exegetical traditions.
most of the narratives of jesus in the gospels are based on such interpretive traditions, modeling events of jesus' life on various texts of the greek ot.
jesus' multiplication of the loaves (cf.
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Pole
Narkissos,
You do raise essential questions (which perhaps would be worth another thread).
I don't have that much to say in this respect anyway, so I'll finish my digression in this post. I hope Leolaia will forgive me. She's away on holiday anyway!
Les Grecs ont-ils cru à leurs mythes?
Wow, I did understand this one after two months of learning French!
Greek philosophy is perhaps the first methodical attempt at extracting a logos from the overwhelming mythos -- and this is the very beginning of our critical civilisation. But this critical analysis, for what it is worth, doesn't work backwards.
Interesting. I once had a long conversation with a christian who used this veracity argument with reference to the Hebrew Scriptures. He said he believed the Greek scriptures were influenced by those aspects of Greek philosophy that you mention to such an extent that we can trust them as accounts of actual events. You have extended this argument to the NT as well.
Now back to the highly elusive question of the author's intention. Frankly I doubt that the authors of the stories about Jesus being born from a virgin, walking on the sea, quieting the storm, transfigured or ascended to heaven would intend their texts to be taken literally as we often do; perhaps they couldn't even imagine that some people would read them this way. Those were texts for liturgical use (they were read aloud) and they were written to serve and develop a collective experience. If we read them as a newspaper report or an encyclopedia article (whether to defend them or to criticise them at this level of reading) we are to blame -- not the texts or the authors.
This is what I actually wanted to know. I'm not sure what to think because I never really researched the diachronic aspects of the Bible. It just sounds so unbelievable to me that the authors of the Gospels may not have meant their stories to be taken as descriptions of real events. But I guess it's a very interesting perspective which reconiles different elements of the theories I have heard so far (conspiracy, actual revelation, fabrication, etc.).
But there is much more to any text than its author's intentions. As Derrida pointed out in many ways, what the author writes is not just what s/he means.
I can still remember that from my literature classes (I did a minor in lit - I mostly hated it though). The Gospels are slightly different n this respect however because we have a few simultanuous accounts of the same events, so some conscious reflection on the contents of those books must have been involved on their part.
Pole
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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Pole
A Christian,
I think the misunderstanding on this thread arises from the fact that you haven't demonstrated to have a consistent methodology which would allow you to draw coherent and scientifically valid conclusions in the areas of disagreement.
Implicitly or explicitly, all serious scientific reasoning is based on some methodology. It usually involves deduction, induction, the semiotics of a specialised scientific langauge, or even something as fancy as phenomenology.
Problems start when you mix up the generally recognized methods of drawing scientific conclusions with the methods of religious exegesis. In fact, I think that's why people who care to have an honestly framed methodology got slightly emotional about your reasoning. You dissappointed themby raising unfulfilled expectations! :)
The fact that you accept the evolution of hominids doesn't make the Adam and Eve story any more scientific. You still have to make your Adam and Eve methodology explicit.
There's no way you can trade hominids for Eden with people who care about being intelectually honest along the lines of scientific methodologies. Otherwise we're playing some mutual adoration society game. :)
Peace be with you.
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How do JWs from other countries view the USA based Watchtower?
by frankiespeakin ini often wondered how those of other natonalities who eventually become jws view taking orders from a usa based religion.
did it bother you that foreigners were making rules that you had to live by?
did the people that you met at the doors every bring up the fact that this was a religion run by foreigners?
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Pole
Yes, some people did bring this issue up at the door. But it was easy to explain away. You'd simply say that if God was to reestablish the only true worship then what other country would he have chosen? America allows you to export ideas quite easily.
Lame excuse, I know, because some would argue that God chose a rather unimportant country to start spreading the word from 2000 yrs ago and it seemed to work just fine.
Otherwise, I think at least in Eastern Europe there was this Coca-Cola effect. When the Iron Curtain was abolished first in Poland then in Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia and the rest of EUrope, people were starving for Western Culture and ideas. There was a high level of tolerance for anything Western. Now this trend seems to be vanishing.
Another thing: the fact that the GB was located somwhere across the ocean contributed to the aura of mysticism surrounding the FDS doctrine. Simply, if you disagreed with a certain organizational procedure there was one more instance to blame - the branch office. So if something went wrong, you'd just say "oh, it's just the local elders", if something went really wrong you'd say, "well it's just our stupid branch office". Only if something went terribly wrong could you dare ask "Are the Brooklyn Boys to blame?".
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27
The Nativity Traditions of Jesus
by Leolaia inthe nativity traditions in the synoptic gospels are interesting for their reliance on ot exegetical traditions.
most of the narratives of jesus in the gospels are based on such interpretive traditions, modeling events of jesus' life on various texts of the greek ot.
jesus' multiplication of the loaves (cf.
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Pole
Leolaia,
It is a commonplace in literature for motifs and traditions to be recycled and adapted to new narrative contexts.
I clarified my point in the post above, but just to reemphasize: I don't think the Gospel motifs you mentioned in the posts can be classified as a "literary commonplace". It's certainly not a literary commonplace to create the impression of factuality with as much success as it was the case with the Gospels by simply throwing in a couple of cultural archetypes here and there. Hundreds of millions of people over the centuries understood those events literally. Could this have anything to do with the intentions of the writers?
Cheers and enjoy your holiday!
Pole