Posts by Terry

49

Honest mistakes? The Governing Body's excuses for their actions

by Terry in

jw
friends

the governing body tells us they are not false prophets because they admit their mistakes.. they only err because they are zealous to see the new order commence.. they are on the watch and warning everybody just like they are supposed to.. their doctrines change (new light) because they see and admit their errors.. what more can we expect of them?.

is the governing body honestly doing the best they can?

they are only human; how can we expect them to be perfect?.

Terry

andfranz:

Can you describe the voices in your head?

35

C.T. Russell Claimed Modern Inventions Were Harbingers of the Millennium

by Kenneson in

the april 15, 1915 zion's watch tower, page 126 has an interesting brief article entitled "the typewriter and progress" that is certainly worth perusing.. "amongst the great inventions of our day is the typewriter.

it came upon the market just forty years ago, in 1874, as a merchantable and usable convenience, after having been seven years in process of development.

the bible, we believe, marks the same year, 1874, as the beginning of the harvest of this age.

Terry

I recently visited a member of the International bible students at his home (a mobile home) where he lived with his fully grown son. His entire life had been spent teaching Charles Taze Russell's Study in the Scriptures along with the famous wall chart demonstrating how the Great Pyramid illuminates the epochs of dispensation. Blah blah blah.

I sat through his entire presentation. I listened very carefully.

I have to be honest with you. I almost started crying. Why? I felt so sorry for this sincere, dedicated, faithful believer! He LIVED for this presentation and had it down cold. It was black and white to him and logical as 2+2=4

I also saw myself in him! I saw in him my zeal and utter conviction at the age of 18. Only in his case, his family was second and third generation Bible Students!

I asked him alot of questions. I didn't pretend I was somebody that I wasn't. I explained to him ahead of time that I had been one of Jehovah's Witnesses and that I was now Agnostic and my purpose in speaking to him was to leave no stone unturned in settling religious issues in my mind.

He explained to me that it was the voice of Jehovah leading me back to him and that I was one of the anointed being called home!!

May I confess something here? This struck me like a lightning bolt! I got a strange chill down my spine. I did; I really did! For a long (too long) moment I was filled with a peculiar physical reaction. I ACTUALLY ENJOYED HEARING what he had just told me! I swear to you that I WANTED TO BELIEVE HIM!

Why? Because it would make me very special, indeed. I would be one of God's chosen! How can anybody resist such an offer?

Then my rational mind jumped in and pulled me out of the deep emotional water. I saw the bribe. This Bible Student had offered me a better deal than the JW's! I could get the extra benefit of going to heaven and living with Jehovah!! All I had to do was..........

Well, there it was. I saw in an instant that what this whole thing really amounts to is a con-game. Here are the elements.

1.An unimpeachably honest person approaches you and offers you the deal of a lifetime: heaven! God's approval! Life everlasting! Protection from evil and harm!

2.God's honest salesman gives you a dog and pony show that purports to demonstrate how the real story of life is written by god and he is in control.

3.All you need do is sign on the dotted line and get your pyramid chart and dozen copies of Studies in the Scripture and god does the rest.

Geez, Louise! How sad.

I really liked the man and his son. They live a very lonely life lost in their gorgeous dream of distant splendor and immune to the siren's call of an everyday life; an ordinary life. Armageddon is outside their kitchen window and the sound of their Lord's shepherding voice wafts over the trailer parking lot to assure them of their new home of many mansions.

10

seventh millennium

by RR in

quick question.

charles taze russell taught and believed that the end of 6,000 years and the beginning of the 7th would commence in 1872.

later, the society under fred franz would change that to 1975, which resulted in the armageddon fiasco.

Terry

The Watchtower dirty dozen never read their Bible even though it was "only" written for them!

The description of the Creation Days in Genesis follow each segment with the following words:

And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.

And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.

And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.

And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.

And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.

And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

IF THESE WERE EPOCHS; why the "evening" and "morning" descriptives which make it abundantly clear they were 24 revolutions of the Earth on its axis???

24

My Lunch with an active JW today

by Terry in

johnny and i go back all the way to childhood.

we met in elementary school all those years ago.

he was a chubby, one-eyed kid with freckles and a coat that didn't fit him and i was a tall and vanishingly thin introvert who wore dress pants instead of blue jeans.

Terry

I remember that later, after lunch, he said something that stunned me. He said his children were "worthless". "All of them".

Wuh?

Where does THAT come from? He has five kids that are all grown. The youngest of his kids is 23. They ALL live at home. All go to AA meetings. All have been in and out of the organization over the years.

He actually thinks being a Jehovah's Witness had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT!

He has said many times that he and his wife were perfect parents. This sort of self deception is mind-boggling to me. But, to say your own children are "WORTHLESS"???

I told him this:

When kids don't have outright abusive parents they cannot say to themselves "They are hurting me, they deserve to be hated or ignored, I'll rebel against them because they are mean and evil"
Instead, when their parents are kind and religious and "righteous" they look at themselves as evil and mean and deserving of punishment for feeling they HATE THE VALUES of their righteous parents. They turn it on themselves and punish themselves. They destroy the evil by hurting their own worthless selves. So, to dull the pain and still the anger they drink or take drugs and they act out.

The only part of that Johnny got was that he and his wife, Carol, were righteous!!

Amazing words from a parent, don't you think?

133

String theory, Relativity, and angels

by onacruse in

current mathematical models of the universe involve what is termed 'hyper-dimension.".

ever read the book flatland?

it describes how a 2-dimensional being would perceive the intersection of a 3-dimensional object in "their" universe.. a flatlander would never be able to comprehend a sphere.

Terry

The most mysterious thing about Albert Einstein was the fact that all his great theoretical insights came while he was employed as a junior patent review clerk. Instead of doing his job he was daydreaming. He never had another insight. During his lean years with nothing important coming out of him and yet, the eyes of the world on him--he went through many crises of self-examination. I'd bet that "mystery" quote came during his fallow period.

17

Need a recommendation for a good book re: Proving the bible wrong

by indoubt in

jw
friends

i am trying to find a good book which would explain why the bible cannot be inspired by god.. (for example, a book that would dissert the bible and illustrate its contradictions, etc.

i know there are lots of those out there, but which one did you enjoy reading?.

indoubt

Terry

The Bible is the best book for proving the bible wrong.

That may sound like a quip or a smart-alec response. But, it is a true statement.

In Western civilization, there has been a non-stop word of mouth propaganda from the mouths of mother's to their babes in arms that the Bible is the word of God almighty.

Infants, small children and adolescents (whether they grow up to be religious or not) have their wellspring of reason poisoned by the implantation of that imperishable idead: The Bible is the word of God.

One of the mechanisms that keeps the bible from slipping into obsolesence is the tireless work of apologists for thousands of years. The best, the brightest, the most sincere minds through the ages have labored mightily to prop up every creaky passage that doesn't pass the sniff test of even the most modest intellect.

Besides, most people who defend the bible with the loudest voices don't actually read it. The average Christian reads books ABOUT the Bible. They read the works of apologists. The bible is the finest soporific known to mankind. ( sleep inducing www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn)

What is required to PROVE the bible is not the word of God is to understand the actual problem. By defining the problem clearly; you are half way to solving it.

1.Disprove the bible? To who? (or "whom" if you prefer). To prove/disprove anything to anybody requires that there be a person who is objective and intellectually honest who will consider only the facts and disregard any emotional attachments to a particular outcome.)

2.The language of the bible is not the language of objective speech. I'm not even speaking about the Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic aspect of original writings. No, I'm talking about the very "sense" of words themselves.

A. In everyday language words have actual meanings. In the bible, the words have conceptual, general and empty resemblance to meanings. Just as the Hebrew text had no vowels and the sound had to be supplied by the reader; so too, the content of the actual words is supplied by the reader according to their subjective viewpoint and not based on a non-varying standard. Example: God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he (Adam) would surely die. That could not be any clearer, could it? But, the "day" wasn't a day. And "die" wasn't die. How do we know? Because Adam did not die on that day! So, did God lie? Yes. IF the words had objective meaning! But, if you fill in your own personal explanation for why the consequence of eating didn't lead to DYING that DAY, then you are in the business of RELIGION.

B.Quantities do not represent actual mathematical entities; they represent whatever you want them to represent. They can be symbols of "largeness", they can be abstract mystical constructs or they can be physical exactitudes. You supply the context and the content yourself.

3. Just as there is no Bible Chronology without the support of data from secular historians, archeologists and rabbinical scholars; there is no "there" there as far as a data base of supernatural knowledge content. There is never a divine piece of information given in the bible that was not already available from the mind of men living at the time.

4.Prophecy is giving advance information about events BEFORE those events transpire in such detail as no fudging is possible to misunderstand the meaning and intention of the details. Archeology and scholorship informs us when the likely date of writing of bible books took place. There is no sound evidence that any prophecy was recorded BEFORE the fact of any event written about in the Bible.

5. Anybody can use weasel words to suggest the coming of an event which may be interpreted as having happened but is not subject to physical verification. The New testament is filled with such weasel word prophesy. Earthquakes, food shortages, marriages, war, rumors of war---the list is endless. These things occur with such regularity that it becomes impossible to use them as a marker of anything other than imagination.

I would personally suggest you read the following books.

WHO WROTE THE BIBLE? by Professor Richard Elliott Friedman

THE BATTLE FOR GOD (A History of Fundamentalism) by Karen Armstrong

The MYTHMAKER (Paul and the Invention of Christianity) by Hyam Maccoby

Also, on the web, visit and read the writings of Farrell Till and his debates

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/articles-idx.html

65

What Is The Most Successful Way To Get Rid of Jehovah's Witneses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

any ideas???

?

Terry

KNOCK KNOCK, Ding Dong, Tap Tap Tap.

(Door opens) Creeeeaaaaaakk.

HouseHolder: "Mmm, yeah?"

Publisher:"Good Morning, My name is Freddy Feckless and this Earnest Boob and we're in your neighborhood this morning with a group of ministers sharing a messege of hope and good news. Could you use some good news?"

HouseHolder: I sure could use some good news. Has the governing body in Brooklyn New York finally apologized for 125 years of false prophecy, crackpot religious scams and self-serving policies that led to the deaths of men, women and children who are mind-raped into following their ever changing whims?"

Sound of two publishers running frantically from the door, leaping hedges and diving into 1983 Mercury Station Wagon and ripping their searsucker leisure jackets.

HouseHolder looking on: "Well, I guess not".

End.

53

Celebrating Birthdays--Disfellowshipping Offense--Where stated in WT pubs?

by blondie in

blondis is asking for help.

where does it state that if a jw celebrates a brithday that it is a disfellowshipping offense.

i have searched and searched.

Terry

The reason anybody can be disfellowshipped for anything is that they can get you into the backroom of the Kingdom Hall and gang up on you and push your buttons.

The bullyboy's destroy your sense of self-respect by backing you into a narrow corner of self-justification. If you try to develop a cogent response, a logical defense, a point of merit or merely desire to read them a scripture; you'll be cut off at the knees. Anything goes in a Judicial Committee meeting. It is the KKK and trembling "darkie" with a burning cross in the background revisited.

The strategy is to get you to blurt out anything that will condemn you by your own words. If they can heap enough indignity upon you and anger you--it is unavoidable. If they can't get you any other way they'll push you into anger. The WANT you to tell them where to stick it.

In a court of law you have equal standing because you are viewed as INNOCENT until proven guilty with a full right of equal response by representation. There is due process. But, in the Kingdom Hall you have no standing, no merit and are guilty until proven innocent.

24

My Lunch with an active JW today

by Terry in

johnny and i go back all the way to childhood.

we met in elementary school all those years ago.

he was a chubby, one-eyed kid with freckles and a coat that didn't fit him and i was a tall and vanishingly thin introvert who wore dress pants instead of blue jeans.

Terry

If anybody wants to run down to Barnes and Noble and pick up a copy of Talmudic Scholar Hyam Maccoby's book THE MYTHMAKER, Paul and the Invention of Christianity you will find the $9 you spend to be an embaressment of riches.

By taking the classical Jewish rabbinical view of things into the study of how the Jerusalem congregation dealt with Paul the teachings of the Watchtower Society regarding blood fall by the wayside.

There were two methods of salvation for Gentiles in Pharisee thinking; either by full conversion to Judaism, in which case the convert would become a full Jew and participate in the covenant with israel; or by adherence to the Noahide Laws which constittued a covenant and a Torah for Gentiles as revealed by God to Noah, the patriarch of the Gentiles.

In the case of Paul vs the brothers in Jerusalem, the Gentiles he was preaching to would not wish to become full-fledged Jews since their salvation by Jesus was sufficient. The Jews would, therefore, insist they abide by the Nohide laws if they were going to allow them association in worship.

Consequently, the argument that the Jews regarded Gentiles as doomed to destruction unless they became Jews is nonsense. Paul, who neither read nor spoke nor wrote Hebrew was raised a Gentile by his Gentile parents. His efforts to become a Pharisee failed. It is psychologically necessary for Paul to figure out a salvation for himself that is SUPERIOR to those who rejected him. The Ebionite account of Paul is most illuminating. (Ebionites were a gnostic sect (writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls) who shed further light on who Paul was.

Paul's claims about himself are never challenged by modern day Christianity and least of all the Watchtower Society. An honest investigation of all available historical evidence puts Paul's self-claims to the test.

The fact is Paul's theories about Jesus and his place in religious history was a self-serving and elevating attempt at self-aggrandizement. His writings were FIRST between 50 c.e. and 60 c.e. By the time the gospel accounts began to be written down decades of Paul's version had a chance to influence prevailing viewpoints. The gospels date from 70 c.e. to 110 c.e.

The editors of orthodoxy preferred Paul's version and eliminated everything that didn't fit his theory from finding its way into the canonized version of the Bible. As a result, the Apostles are portrayed as little more than dumb boobs who understood nothing. Jesus' own brother, James, is hardly mentioned at all! Yet, who led the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' death?

Stepping outside of mainstream thought requires a lot of work. It requires taking all ancient writings into evidence and weighing the balance between them. When contradictions start clearing up, the picture often makes more logical sense than the sanitised official view so dear to the hearts of the powerbroker religious institutions.

My friend, Johnny, simply never entertains any thought that don't originate from Brooklyn N.Y.

He said yesterday, more than once, "I HAVE TO BELIEVE....."
Desperate!

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

Terry

I know nothing about this subject. But, let me open my big mouth anyway.

Let us take a coin-flip and experiment with Predestination and Foreordination, just for fun to discover first principles.

It is foreordained that there will be two categories of result to a coin flip.

1.Heads 2.Tails

It is inescapable that the above shall occur. It is not the teacher of statistical analysis who does the ordaining, notice, it is the nature of the coin itself!

Secondly, AFTER the coin-flip has happened (in the case of each and every individual penny) a unique determination results. This particular penny has revealed its own nature to be (a)Head (b)Tail.

Where does Predestination enter the picture? Only for each PARTICULAR penny. The physics of being tossed, the circumstances of the toss, the dynamics of the height of the toss, etc. TEST the very essence of the penny in terms of its response. In those PARTICULARS the result (for that penny alone) are foreordained.

Mathematics reveals that RANDOM does not exist. If you don't believe that just flip a handful of pennies for an hour and list the results.

Half will be heads and half will be tales. It is foreordained. We call it the Law of Probability. Why is it a law? Variance (in the long run) is impossible.

People who do not study Statistics find it counter-intuitive. Math-deficiency works against having a "feel" for such discussions.

Conclusions: For the general category of PENNY we can state without possibilty of contradiction that all coin tosses will follow the head/tail destiny.

Now, substitute the words SALVATION for "heads" and DESTRUCTION for "tails" and reread what is written above.

Does this help the discussion any?