I'm not really a people person. Dub loves people.
It is good to find your opposite in life and observe and learn from them.
I think the worst decision we can make in life is to associate only with like-minded people.
How do you grow?
Posts by Terry
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12Conversation with a Seminary student over coffee . . .
by Terry inthis is a distilled (and from memory) reconstruction of a chat awhile back.
ive dusted it off for today.. my 81 year old ex-baptist minister friend dub and i went to starbucks for coffee and conversation.
dub likes to start conversations with strangers.. today a seminary student caught his eye.
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12
Conversation with a Seminary student over coffee . . .
by Terry inthis is a distilled (and from memory) reconstruction of a chat awhile back.
ive dusted it off for today.. my 81 year old ex-baptist minister friend dub and i went to starbucks for coffee and conversation.
dub likes to start conversations with strangers.. today a seminary student caught his eye.
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Terry
This is a distilled (and from memory) reconstruction of a chat awhile back. I’ve dusted it off for today.
My 81 year old ex-Baptist minister friend Dub and I went to Starbucks for coffee and conversation. Dub likes to start conversations with strangers.
Today a Seminary student caught his eye. They talked for about half an hour before Dub dropped me into it. Dub described me as an ex-cult member who had spent time in prison! This sucked me in when the student addressed me directly. His name was Jason and he was in his final year in Dallas Baptist Seminary.
He: "Who or what is your idea of god?"
Me: "At one time I could speak confidently that I KNEW within a moral certainty exactly who god was, his Name and his purpose. Now, I have to laugh at my idiotic and egotistical self-deception! Any god that I--a mortal creature--could describe and know would always be unworthy of worship and far removed from reality. You know why—because such a god would be more ME and my imagination. I'm ignorant. I don't and can't KNOW god. Anybody who tells me that they DO is somebody I view with caution. The way you'd treat a person who has been kidnapped and probed by aliens in a UFO."
He: "For a guy with no beliefs you have very strong beliefs!"
Me: "You and I don't use language the same way, I'm afraid. It makes communication accuracy almost impossible."
He: "Why do you say that?"
Me: "Because I live in a Post-Enlightenment world described by science with measurements and descriptions that are testable. You, as a Seminary student, are immersed in a Pre-Enlightenment world described by metaphor utterly elusive to testing except as an interpretation of an emotion."
He: "So you are alone in the Universe without direction, then. Doesn't that frighten you?"
Me: “I came through my mother's birth canal without a roadmap or a clue. Same as you, I suspect. On the one hand, Science had given us medicine, technology, space travel, triple-bypass surgery and antibiotics while religion has given us talking snakes and donkeys, fluttering angels and malevolent devils. Which is closer to reality and progress and health and well-being?"
He: "But, we all die."
Me: "Well said! The religious person does die. No better or worse than the infidel."
He: "But, afterward the judgment!"
Me: "Afterward, the funeral!
Remember Jason, Muslims have the 42 virgins and Mormons have their own planet and Jehovah's Witnesses have a Paradise Earth according to belief--not according to reality. We can test a dead body for life. We can't test a belief; we can only assert it."
He: "We have the promises of the bible."
Me: "And the Koran and the Vedas, and the returning...returning...almost here....Jesus as well. I once had a friend who promised to split his Lottery winnings with me! You'll notice I did not drive up in a limousine!"
He: "Those Jehovah Witnesses really did a number on you, didn't they?"
Me: "I was the one who jumped in to the frying pan. I did it to myself."
He: "Why?"
Me: "Because I was a believer before I was a test-to-prover. I was a person of Faith rather than a person of due diligence. I wanted pie in the sky bye and bye rather than a life of three score and ten and then a cemetery plot. It is called gullibility and greed for more than there really is. I was a glutton who could stuff a tasty promise in my gut and ask for whipped cream!"
He: "I've never heard anything like this before. You're a strange man. I don't mean to be insulting."
Me: "I'm non-threatening and have no agenda to carry out. I won't be spreading any false doctrines to young college students or instructing others to put whim and willy-nilly ahead of a reasonable skeptical inquiry, that's for sure."
He: "And how do you know for sure if you are right or not?"
Me: "The easiest test there is. I look at my own life. We need to be able to spot a phony even if he is staring back at us from our mirror! When I was a bible thumping, door knocking Jehovah's Witness I never improved anybody's life for even five minutes. I just parroted what I was told. It was a job like cleaning the bathroom. I was so busy wallowing in all that "Truth" I forgot to be real. Telling somebody something that isn't true---even if it is beautiful--is a terrible and cruel attempt at making the world a better place. I'd rather mind my own business when it comes to certainty and absolutes."
He: "Well....food for thought. I enjoyed talking with you. I have to go now."
See the kind of day you can have with Dub as your traveling companion? He will chat anybody up.
He'll excuse himself to go to the restroom and return an hour later having stopped to talk to some lady who was sitting reading a book!
Today's coffee shop chat is not unusual. Dub had had a go at the fellow before dropping me into it.
Afterward, Dub insisted that we were "meant" to go to that coffee shop that morning. God had sent us there to give that fellow something to think about.
I smiled.
Here I thought it was because my daughter had given me a gift certificate :)
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127
I'm sitting here listening to a JW try to recruit somebody
by Terry ini'm at starbucks .
just outside in the courtyard.. i'm trembling.
my hands are shaking.. wow!.
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Terry
The young man corrected me the other day, he is now 20 years old. The hard part is that he is still a 'minor' under Texas law.
He is dependent on family (Mom and sister) but eager to unfurl wings of self-determination without the anchor (millstone) of
Organization pretending to be his God.
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Of great concern to him was the feelings of his erstwhile girlfriend.
(I may have erred in assuming 'fornication' when it might have only been 'loose conduct' but treated as though it were Ebola by
the Elders.)
Be that as it may, each of them has been cautioned about contact with the other. (Gasoline, meet matches!)
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His reinstatement has been announced and a conversation ensued with the girlfriend telling him everything will be okay if he concentrates
on his spirituality.
That comment was problematic in his view. It sounded doctrinaire. Doubtless it was!
While he really wants to commence deprogramming of his near and dear ones, the realization of consequences looms large.
Oh what a cult this is!!
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He is working two jobs and I imagine, having been reinstated, his time will be spoken for. I don't know how long he will endure
having his freetime wasted!
Elective choice is now a precious commodity. I think this is a good thing!
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The official requirement for salvation in the latest WT, nothing to do with Jesus......
by EndofMysteries in"those with the earthly hope who supported christs brothers in the preaching work will have been judged as sheep and will be granted the privilege of living in the earthly realm of the kingdom.
" 3/2015 study wt learn from illustration of talents par 13.. so there you have it, to get salvation you need to only obey the gb and if you obey and worship the gb, then you will be judged as a sheep.
truly those who listen and obey, will be blessed!.
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Terry
The Organization is the Mediator of everybody but the anointed (144,000)
The anointed are THE Christ.
Salvation for the Great Crowd comes only from the Org.
In a Topic just posted 3 hours ago, I demonstrate by taking for themselves the perogatives belonging only to God,
the GB has committed BLASPHEMY.
They are the FALSE CHRIST.
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UNDERSTANDING WHY THE ORGANIZATION is a false idol and a BLASPHEMY
by Terry indo we understand these three words: worship, idolatry, and blasphemy?.
most christians have a vague notion of worship, idolatry, and blasphemy already, but.
a clear definition is necessary.. we must take care to differentiate, however.. how the words appear in original language and how they are defined today might be at odds.. ____________________.
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Terry
DO WE UNDERSTAND THESE THREE WORDS: WORSHIP, IDOLATRY, and BLASPHEMY?
Most Christians have a vague notion of worship, idolatry, and blasphemy already, but
A clear definition is necessary.
We must take care to differentiate, however.
How the words appear in original language and how they are defined today might be at odds.
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The meaning of the New Testament Greek word most often translated “worship” (proskuneo) is “to fall down before” or “bow down before.”
Does this surprise you?This doesn’t seem like quite enough, does it? And yet—this is the language of the New Testament.
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During President Barack Obama’s presidency, he has bowed 8 times to foreign kings and dignitaries. Certainly this was no act of worship, but deference—or—professional courtesy and nothing more.
This public courtesy is for the eyes of others.
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What goes on inside the mind of the one bowing or prostrating themselves is altogether another matter.
True worship is a reaction and not a decision.
How so? Emotion is involved.
Emotion is an involuntary physical signal triggered by one’s values.
You can fake behavior, but you cannot experience emotions which are counterfeit or feigned.
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Defined with this in mind we can say:
WORSHIP is a spontaneous emotional response which overwhelms the worshipper with wonder, awe, admiration and total devotion.
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On a mundane level, one only has to recall the reaction of fans seeing in person such performers as the Beatles or Elvis Presley to understand the emotional and compulsive element of worship.
Note: the distinction between worship in appearance and worship from emotion in this one small scriptural descriptive is described:
Matthew 28:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
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The most important aspect of worship is spontaneous feeling and not ritual behavior.
Faking a deeply held appraisal is without value in the spirit of true worship. It is empty of content.
Let us move on to IDOLATRY.
In Greek, eidololatria, is the transfer of respect and emotion to the IMAGE or representation rather than THE REAL thing.
In Hebrew, avodah zarah (foreign worship) references the transfer of loyalty from here to THERE.
NOTE: A clear link can be observed here. Where your heart is your emotions follow. To profess love for someone while experiencing emotions elsewhere is the key to IDOLATRY.
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BLASPHEMY:
In both (Old and New) Testaments the idea of blasphemy as something that offends the religious sensibilities of others is completely absent.
Blasphemy is personal to God—it has nothing to do with how others view god.
The best example is given in the account of what happened when Moses brought the newly escaped Israelites to Mt. Sinai to receive God’s covenant and laws.
Nehemiah 9:18Revised Standard Version (RSV)
18 Even when they had made for themselves a molten calf and said, ‘This is your God who brought you up out of Egypt,’ and had committed great blasphemies. . .”
What just happened? Be very careful here not to impose preconceived ideas into this verse!
The Golden Calf was identified as ‘your God who brought you out of Egypt’ and this Golden Calf
stirred the emotions of the people. They FELT worship for IT rather than the true God.
Are you ready to combine these 3 terms, Worship, Idolatry, and Blasphemy into an UNDERSTANDING of crucial importance?
The following verses make very clear that the Living God is not a ‘respecter of persons’. . .
2 Samuel 14:14
2 Chronicles 19: 7
Acts 10: 34
Romans 2: 11
If you read those verses the clear message is simply, God does not give respect to persons.
So what?
So this, the Watchtower Organization contradicts these clear statements.
God says one thing and the Watchtower says the opposite. Why?
Before we answer this, let’s read the Watchtower definition of BLASPHEMY:
INSIGHTS IN THE SCRIPTURES, Vol. 1
“Blasphemy includes the attributes of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of God, or
ascribing these to another person or god.”
Okay, do you have that definition clearly in mind?
What now if the Watchtower Organization proceeds to do that very thing—claim attributes or prerogatives of God while ascribing these to THEMSELVES?
- Watchtower Sept. 15, 1993: “But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and pure joy.”
- Watchtower Nov. 15, 1981: “. . . Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation. . .”
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Salvation is the prerogative of God, is it not?
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“Blasphemy includes the attributes of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of God, or
ascribing these to another person or god.”
Romans 10: 13 “For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
NOT: “Come to Jehovah’s organization FOR SALVATION.”
Did the Apostle Paul or the other Apostles ever form an Organization and bid others to find salvation by means of it or by means of them? NO!
Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
This would include Watchtower Corporation, Kingdom Hall, Jehovah’s Witnesses and ORGANIZATION, wouldn’t it?
Salvation is not from the church, the apostles, the Bible or Organization accordingly.
At this point we can pull our understanding of BLASPHEMY closer to view and use it to analyze and clarify what claims the Watchtower ORGANIZATION is making for itself. Can it be blasphemous?
Worldwide Security under the Prince of Peace (Chapter 1)
“Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.”
Is the Watchtower going to CLAIM FOR ITSELF the prerogative of God by this? Read on.
Watchtower Sept. 1, 1951 “Thus these gain words of salvation and seek refuge and life through Jehovah’s organization.”
Is it fair to read into these words a claim not intended?
Watchtower-Nov.1, 1990 “We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or organization.”
How then are those 3 terms (Worship, Idolatry, Blasphemy) to be understood in view of the Watchtower’s claims?
Jehovah is the only true source of prophecy BUT who was the source of the following?
- Watchtower -March 16, 1962 “. . . This generation that is still alive from A.D. 1914 is the generation Jesus said would, “see all things occur,” including this world’s end.” “That a symbolic application to wicked persons is NOT meant at Matthew 24:34 is apparent. . . “
- Watchtower-Nov. 1, 1995 “. . . “This generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the signs of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.” i.e. ‘wicked’
Does this ‘clarification’ contradict the previous statement? Yes. Is it from Jehovah? No.
Who is assuming the prerogatives of God in making these ‘clarifications’ of prophecy?
If it is a person or organization (Yes, the Watchtower) it is an act of BLASPHEMY.
“Blasphemy includes the attributes of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of God, or
ascribing these to another person or god.”
- Watchtower Feb.15 2008 “As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern day “generation” of contemporaries that will not pass away “until all these things occur.” This suggests that some who are Christ’s anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins.”
- Watchtower-June 15, 2010 “Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.”
HERE were FOUR STABS at clarification. Is it Jehovah making things ‘clearer’? Was God struggling to understand what Jesus meant—or was it people claiming the attributes and prerogatives of God making fools of themselves by over reaching?
Have I gone too far?
Am I exaggerating?
Is the Governing Body of the Watchtower Organization REALLY putting itself equal to Jehovah?
Watchtower- June 1, 1956 “The slave’s will is Jehovah’s will. Rebellion against the slave is rebellion against God.”
Who is this ‘slave’? The ‘faithful and discreet slave’ which is the Watchtower’s pet phrase for the Governing Body leaders.
Remember those verses about God being “no respecter of persons”?
Now we see why.
Watchtower Organization demands loyalty and unquestioning obedience which are God’s prerogatives.
Watchtower Organization holds itself as the Mediator for salvation.
Watchtower Organization holds itself as the prophet and teacher of God’s prophetic truth—but it
Cannot seem to figure things out without repeated missteps, errors and clarifications which aren’t clear!
THE CASE FOR BLASPHEMY has been made.
What is your verdict?
One last point. Jesus and Christianity are about the rescue of mankind from sin for everlasting life.
The Watchtower disagrees with this. The Organization takes precedence over everything!
Watchtower—April 13, 1951 “God’s organization is more important to him than the salvation of an immoral or disobedient creature.”
WHAT AN OUTRAGEOUS SENSE OF SELF-IMPORTANCE!
I leave you with the words of Romans 5:8
“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ died for us.”
Did Jesus die for an ORGANIZATION? (The word ‘organization’ is absent from scripture.)
No.
The Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses is led by false idols stealing emotional involvement away
from God and attaching it to themselves. This is BLASPHEMY!
The Organization has called itself MOTHER.
The Organization wants to be loved, obeyed, trusted because it is a FALSE IDOL.
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127
I'm sitting here listening to a JW try to recruit somebody
by Terry ini'm at starbucks .
just outside in the courtyard.. i'm trembling.
my hands are shaking.. wow!.
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Terry
I truly appreciate all the comments this thread has attracted including the caveats, the suggestions and the kind words.
Life exists in a continuum of tasks requiring skill sets. If we don't have the proper tools for the job the frustration can unhinge us
and quickly set us back.
JW's truly have a sense of achievement based on practically nothing but rah-rah pep talks from the Watchtower gang.
JW's stay busy. But--busy does not mean effective.
The bottom line in departing from the hypnogogic trance of Absolute Belief is sudden realization you don't know how to do anything REAL.
You suck at life!
Your tools and skill set are maladapted.
Plus, all the time you wasted acquiring make-believe skills and pumping yourself full of 'spiritual confidence' is nontransferable to the real world.
It isn't, for example, like changing your major in college and keeping your credits and applying them toward something else.
If I were 19 or 20 again, I think I could recover quickly enough once I realized my life was a lie as a JW.
But, a lifetime of absolute confidence and loyalty in somebody who--let's face it--LIES; well, it is dispiriting and heartbreaking.
You have to mourn and then set aside everything.
Every. . .thing.
Commence from square one and retrace the wrong turns substituting indoctrinated concepts for workable and pragmatic ones.
I think Jordan is well-equipped to do this because he has a really solid center to him which craves honesty.
This is a fine foundation to rebuild upon.
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Series of articles about the March 15, 2015 Watchtower on AD1914.com
by Gilgamesh inover the next 5 weeks, we should have 5 or 6 articles/posts that will provide more commentary on the march 15, 2015 watchtower.
important doctrinal changes in march 15th, 2015 watchtower (study edition) explained wp.me/p4cpzs-xo .
http://ad1914.com/2014/04/20/new-important-doctrinal-changes-in-march-15th-watchtower-study-edition-explained-clarified/.
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Terry
Ahhhhhh, okaaaaay. I'm clued!
Thanks.
The doctrinal changes article just struck me immediately as way above the usual fare and I realized something about
the quality was connected to a. . . giggle. . . "higher power." Experience and intelligence are the light which can't
be hidden under the bushel.
Thanks for the head's up, btw.
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Series of articles about the March 15, 2015 Watchtower on AD1914.com
by Gilgamesh inover the next 5 weeks, we should have 5 or 6 articles/posts that will provide more commentary on the march 15, 2015 watchtower.
important doctrinal changes in march 15th, 2015 watchtower (study edition) explained wp.me/p4cpzs-xo .
http://ad1914.com/2014/04/20/new-important-doctrinal-changes-in-march-15th-watchtower-study-edition-explained-clarified/.
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Terry
Gilgamesh,
Are you still attending any Kingdom Hall? The only reason I ask is I am curious as to your identity, and then--only because
you come from the Ray Franz era at Bethel and would undoubtedly be seen as a 'celebrity' around here:) (Not being facetious!)
Unlike the majority who post on discussion groups, your personal experiences are rich in factual details from a very historic period
in JW history. In essence, you know where the 'bodies are buried.'
I looked up your original posts/topics on our JW-net history function and realized how essential your viewpoint is to our community
if, for no other reason, you lived through it and knew principle players.
I bemoan the silence of intervening years since your first appearance a dozen years ago.
Are you hands-on with any projects at the moment? Have you given consideration to writing your personal biography and self-publishing?
Would you sit still for some Q & A?
Has your old nemesis Bill Bowen reappeared in a puff of smoke and the scent of brimstone lately:)
Thanks!
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127
I'm sitting here listening to a JW try to recruit somebody
by Terry ini'm at starbucks .
just outside in the courtyard.. i'm trembling.
my hands are shaking.. wow!.
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Terry
I have no illusions or delusions that I am in control.
Conscience did not permit me to sit still and not intrude. I did not WANT to jump in, believe me, I was extremely
uncomfortable doing so. It was a compulsion I cannot clearly explain to myself or to anybody else.
So too, I'm doing the best I can to follow similar principle to the so-called Hippocratic Oath: "First of all, do no harm."
I can't pretend to control outcome from a person of Free Will (if there be such.)
I am a reluctant advisor. I answer questions with many warnings and disclaimers as I go along.
I really don't see what else I can do. Maybe you do--but then,you're not me.
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"Big Eyes" the story of artist Margaret Keane
by designs inthe tim burton film is ready for release.. www.thewrap.com/big-eyes-premiere-finds-audience-howling-at-christoph-waltz-and-amy-adams-dueling-artists/.
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Terry
In my link above there is considerable detail, but I'll repeat a bit of it here.
The layman who sees something which 'looks like' a painting will call it a painting and be none the wiser.
What usually fools people is the image laying on top of canvas.
Canvas is associated with painting.
However . . .
Any image can be transferred (bonded) to canvas from a print.
The offset lithograph is done by a machine. It differs radically from an original print hand-crafted by an artist in an atelier.
It is a glorified photo process.
1. The artist paints an original painting.
2. The painting is photographed.
3. The colors are electronically "separated" and printing on special paper.
4. The combined layers produce a simulacrum of the original image.
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5. iF the lithograph image is then transferred to canvas it takes on the appearance of the original painting.
6. The addition of "brush strokes" with transparent gel which hardens atop the image adds verisimilitude.
7. The unwitting collector assumes he is buying an original painting, but it is dishonestly worded to say so.