Terry

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Posts by Terry

• 
  22

  TWISTING context to produce false LIGHT (Tricks our Governing Body uses)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as a jehovah's witness:.

  two things finally struck me:.

  1. i was really in a grown up kindergarten and .

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• 

  Terry

  Let's not overlook the slim possibility these "chosen" ones might be "self-chosen" ones :)

  Imposters one and all.
• 
  22

  TWISTING context to produce false LIGHT (Tricks our Governing Body uses)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as a jehovah's witness:.

  two things finally struck me:.

  1. i was really in a grown up kindergarten and .

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  3. 
• 

  Terry

  The Bible wasn't written for anybody but the Governing Body and anointed.

  Logically then, the obligations of preaching, teaching and such are only theirs alone.

  How did the rest of us get dragged into doing their work for them?

  How is it they can hand out beatings when that seems to be the purview of the Evil Slave?

  In nominal Christianity, Christians are to LOVE, take care of widows and orphans, to visit the sick and those in prisons.

  In J-Dub-land, Christians are to peddle magazines and wear logo pins and pretend they are the only people on Earth worthy of Life.

  Hmmmm. . . .
• 
  21

  RESPONSIBILITY vs. "moral" Responsibility (What is the distinction and what is the difference?)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!.

  you ( ought ) to pay me back that $100.

  .. bank loan.

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• 

  Terry

  Ruby 456: both are based on reciprocity imo - the bank loan and what you call moral responsibility

  ____________

  
  

  Ruby, I would ask that you explain the "basis" of reciprocity.

  What is it founded upon? What reason for it can we derive?

  
  

  My view is this: We either ARE or we ARE NOT personally moved to act beneficially toward others depending on our personal, individual character.

  About 3% of the population is Sociopathic with no empathy, no 'fellow feelings' at all, and who must adapt by imitating "normal" behavior.

  For people such as that, for example, all moral arguments are like colors to a color blind person. Invisible.

  
  

  What interests me about this discussion is this. Why does our society spend (waste) so much time and money and effort using "moral obligation" as the premise of life?

  Aren't there more compelling, legitimate arguments to be made? If so--WHAT ARE THEY?

  
  
• 
  21

  RESPONSIBILITY vs. "moral" Responsibility (What is the distinction and what is the difference?)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!.

  you ( ought ) to pay me back that $100.

  .. bank loan.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  To secure a loan from a Bank, you agree to sign a legal document.

  There is no "moral" component to the loan.

  You may be desperate in your plea to a Bank, but the Bank is not "morally" obliged to lend you money.

  See the difference?

  In Religious matters, your behavior and your thoughts are under a different yoke which is MORAL responsibility.

  The OLD TESTAMENT was a legal matter.

  The NEW TESTAMENT is a matter of LOVE.

  Why has a "Moral Responsibility" been invented to guilt-trip

  humans into acting AS THOUGH they feel something which they, in fact, do not feel?
• 
  21

  RESPONSIBILITY vs. "moral" Responsibility (What is the distinction and what is the difference?)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!.

  you ( ought ) to pay me back that $100.

  .. bank loan.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  "Responsibility is the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something, you are in charge of. That is you are directly involved with it, for an action that happens, you are directly involved in the action,
  
  Moral responsibility can refer to responsibility for a moral action, but generally, this is not the meaning people refer to. It also means responsibility for something that you did not do directly, but you were, in a way causal for that action to happen. For example, if you break up with someone badly, and that person commits suicide, you are not 'responsible' for the suicide since you had no actual part to play in it or any involvement. However, you are 'morally responsible' for it, since it was an indirect consequence, of your actions."

  https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-responsibility-and-moral-responsibility
  
• 
  21

  RESPONSIBILITY vs. "moral" Responsibility (What is the distinction and what is the difference?)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!.

  you ( ought ) to pay me back that $100.

  .. bank loan.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  This is not intended to be a highbrow discussion!

  I would prefer it to be an interesting examination of something which affects each of us on some level (or has done) in our lifetime. To wit: moral responsibility.

  What is it? Where did it come from as an idea, a concept, a thing held over our head as a social and religious necessity?

  Read on!

  _________

  In the New Testament Greek we find the following word:

  opheiló: to owe

  Original Word: ὀφείλω

  _________

  There are 35 instances of the use of this word in varying contexts in the Christian-Greek Scriptures. From these situational uses, a consensus of meaning is extracted.

  opheílō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to owe, be indebted, i.e. obliged to rectify a debt ("ought").

  ---

  If you borrow money from the Bank, you are legally required to pay back the loan. This is different and distinct from the same act borrowing from a friend.

  Bank loan = legal responsibility

  ______

  You might say to your friend who borrowed a hundred bucks until payday:

  "Hey Bozo! You ( ought ) to pay me back that $100. You got paid yesterday."

  If you put the word ( opheílō ) inside the ( ) where the "ought" is--you get the basic idea.
  ________

  Hereafter is where the simple idea starts to acquire new layers.

  Bank loan = legal responsibility

  Friend loan = moral responsibility.

  What really is the difference and why does that difference matter?

  ____________

  (opheílō) "originally belonged to the legal sphere; it expressed initially one's legal and economic, and then later one's moral, duties and responsibilities to the gods and to men, or to their sacrosanct regulations. . . . opheílō expresses human and ethical responsibility in the NT"

  _____________

  Here is where language gets tricky!

  Writers and speakers can't help themselves--they love to exaggerate, stretch, and retool the way words are used.

  People like to use very specific terms--but-- poetically, metaphorically, and colorfully to make a point in their everyday speech.

  "I died laughing" is a pretty good example. No, you didn't actually die. The word "die" is a distortion and exaggeration to emphasize the EXTREME and ABSOLUTE nature.

  Such a distortion of language is with us and always has been. If you aren't aware of it--you may be an idiot, or just not paying attention. You aren't an idiot, of course. But do pay attention!

  _________

  Where are we in this discussion so far?

  We are about to discover how humans became MORALLY RESPONSIBLE: as in

  "owing a debt" and we are examining the metaphorical transfer of meaning from an actual legal debt to a friendly debt to a general social debt. We aren't there yet, however.

  ________

  Let's add one more instance of "owing" or obligation to "pay back". . .

  Bank Loan

  Friendly loan

  how about GIFT?

  When your grandmother sends you $20 for your birthday, where is the ὀφείλω "owing" or "debt"?

  I think this will be easy to understand.

  Granny loves you and gives money without your having to ask for it because she knows it is something useful. Where is there an implicit obligation for you to pay back granny?

  This is where this topic really begins!

  ____________________________

  I hope this isn't too subtle. I hope you can see where I'm going.

  How about a phone call thanking her, or a "Thank You" card, or a hug and kiss?

  Before you nod your head in agreement. . . STOP!

  If you love your grandmother, it is natural (inborn) to feel a genuine sense of response to her gift of $20--(wait for it. . . wait for it. . . wait for it) but--if you don't feel anything--WHAT THEN?

  OTHERS, who see the situation and feel sorry that you are an ingrate, will step in and chide you by REMINDING YOU OF A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to thank your grandmother.

  See where we ended up?

  Suddenly we have this category of IMPOSED BURDEN of "owing a debt" which is neither a legal requirement nor a friendly loan.

  Where is the role of your "conscience" if you must have an outside imposed burden laid upon you?

  If you are a child, your "conscience" is nurtured through counsel, examples, discipline, and life experience. If you are an adult, you might be easily distracted, carefree, or otherwise negligent about ordinary duties.

  But if you are an unthinking, unfeeling, callous person, you may find you are always being reminded, urged, chided, pressured and otherwise obliged to respond against your own feelings of debt.

  WHAT THEN?

  _________

  The Bible is filled with MORAL OBLIGATION imposed directly by Deity upon mankind with various punishments, penalty, fines, and disciplines attached.

  Moses transmitted 613 commands/laws/ debts or obligations in the Old Testament.

  __________

  What about the New Testament?

  The entire books of Galatians and a major theme of Colossians communicates the central idea that CHRISTIANS are NOT obligated to those 613 laws or obligations of owing / opheílō

  therefore. . .

  Does this eliminate moral responsibility as well?

  DOES THIS ELIMINATE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY?

  ______________________________
  
  

  Romans 13:8 New King James Version (NKJV)

  
  

  8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled. . . the law.

  Romans 13:8 Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)

  8 Owe (opheilō) no (mēdeis) one anything (mēdeis), except (ei mē ·ho) to love (agapaō) one (allēlōn) another; for (gar) the (ho) one who loves (agapaō) his (ho) neighbor (rheteros) has fulfilled (plēroō) the law (nomos.)

  __________________________________

  
  

  Chime in with your response to my conclusion, which follows.

  You cannot obligate another person morally to LOVE. They either feel love or they do not.

  You can nag somebody into behaving a certain way and pressure them, but you can't penetrate the center of their character from which emotions arise.

  If you guilt-trip a person into actions which appear to be meeting moral debts or obligations what have you actually accomplished?

  _____________________

  Love is love when it comes from within the central persona, character, mindset, and emotional core of a human being. Imposing an obligation to love is a ridiculous distortion of human nature.

  A "moral" person is one who naturally, spontaneously feels moved to pay and pay back.

  Forcing these actions is the act of a prison warden or taskmaster or tyrant.

  THE WATCHTOWER RELIGION consists of obligations placed on its members to fill their minds, their days, their activities with "moral gult trips."

  The Governing Body is your mother. Loyalty and Love are imposed toward anything and everything they teach.

  In view of this discussion, isn't this over-reaching self-aggrandizement?

  If a member FAILS to "pay" their "debt" to the Governing Body's rules--they are threatened with Armageddon death and shunning until that time.

  Where is love and where is the tyranny in this? You can answer that easily.

  What are your views on moral responsibility?
• 
  34

  The Jehovah's Witnesses' Governing Body are Elitists (Here is why)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  an "elite" group is one which has special privileges not granted to others.. and obscurantist elite, is a group which hides information by virtue of its own claim to be special and a sole source in dispensing necessary truths.. to wit:.

  the gb's elitism shines through in articles such as this:.

  “thus the bible is an organizational book and belongs to the christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals , regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the bible .

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  Terry

  Is it wrong to ask my employees to adhere to my vision and not deviate too far from it?

  _____________

  The premise of a business is to make a profit and the premise of employment is to

  exchange efforts for money. An employee is free to leave at any time without risking destruction at Armageddon or the loss of their friends and family.

  So, I'd have to call "False Analogy" on that one.

  The laws of the land act a buffer for an employee, too to prevent victimization, harassment, and fraud.
  Unfortunately, there is no agency buffer for religious adherants.
• 
  87

  What is your "INTUITION" about THE SECRET "law of attraction"?

  by Terry in

  1. social
  2. family

  ever hear somebody say, "trust your gut..."?.

  or, like obe wan kenobe: "trust your feelings...."?.

  have you ever followed that "little voice" that whispers to you that you should or should not do something?.

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• 

  Terry

  Duly noted.

  Out of experience comes wisdom--if we pay attention to the failures of our premises.

  Consider my posts as the wisdom consorting with the rational side of myself.

  I've lived the second part of my life in rebuttal of the first part. Not entirely by choice, but out of necessity.
• 
  22

  TWISTING context to produce false LIGHT (Tricks our Governing Body uses)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as a jehovah's witness:.

  two things finally struck me:.

  1. i was really in a grown up kindergarten and .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  My first impression of JW writings ended up being the same as my last impression. It was the in-between years which I wasted in a default mode of credulity!

  I remember a Witness reading the scripture about Jesus returning and saying, "And every eye shall see him--does NOT mean the literal eye!" I sort of winced and stopped the person speaking to me.

  "Says who?"

  The JW blinked at me a few times and simply went on speaking!
  
  Nonsense from the GB is always nonsense, but it is the PROCESS of indoctrination which does all the work of convincing you of something. But what?
  The Watchtower religion convinces you of GENUINE ERRORS in Christian teachings first, but later substitutes their own errors in place of the first ones!
  After that, you become a Conspiracy Theorist thanks to the magazines crazy reasons and ploys.
  Christendom is for J-Dubs what the "Jew" is for Nazis; nothing good can be said and only opprobrium can be assigned.
• 
  22

  TWISTING context to produce false LIGHT (Tricks our Governing Body uses)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as a jehovah's witness:.

  two things finally struck me:.

  1. i was really in a grown up kindergarten and .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  As a Jehovah's Witness:

  Two things finally struck me:

  1. I was really in a grown up kindergarten and

  2. I was being spoonfed fairytale versions of the Bible.

  In all the publications there would be a densely worded paragraph and two or three scripture "proof-texts" under it.

  Those Bible proof-texts DID NOT support the context of the paragraphs!

  _______________________________

  Example:

  The Watchtower publications convince 8 million JW's Proverbs 4:18 teaches KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH grows brighter and brighter.

  It does NOT. That particular scripture is talking about the PATH of a person and not "knowledge".

  Read the actual scripture:

  International Standard Version

  
  
  The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn that grows brighter until the full light of day.
  
  NET Bible

  
  
  But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light, growing brighter and brighter until full day.
  
  Aramaic Bible in Plain English

  
  
  But the way of the righteous ones is like the shining light, and the light progresses until the day is established.

  In a previous verse, we read: 14 Do not enter the path of the wicked, And do not walk in the way of evil men.

  Behavior is what is being discussed and not some ever-brightening NEW LIGHT of continually changing interpretations!

  __________________________

  Further, by repeatedly rigging the word "knowledge" with an unnecessary modifier("accurate") the impression is burned

  into every JW's mind only the WTS has this special (bogus knowledge) "accurate knowledge".

  __________________________________

  This is what is known as a FALSE DICHOTOMY: , is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities: that is, if one is true, the other must be false, or, more typically, if you do not accept one then the other must be accepted

  EXAMPLE:

  If you go to JW.ORG and click on the NWT scripture of Proverbs 4:18, a marginal reference is given +

  1 Corinthians 13:12

  12 For now, we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face.At present, I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.

  _________________

  Why?

  The purpose is to link two bogus teachings in the mind of the reader!

  _____________________

  Proverbs 4:18 is about a PATH of behavior. It is not about gradually changing doctrines.

  1 Cor 13:12 is about CHRISTIAN MATURITY as a person. It is not about accuracy, like shooting at a target.

  Question: Isn't maturity a matter of improving your behavior through life experience?

  New International Version

  
  For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

  New Living Translation

  
  Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

  English Standard Version
  For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

  New American Standard Bible

  
  For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

  _______________________

  The Watchtower Society RE-CONTEXTS the Proverbs phrase "brighter and brighter" with the 1 Cor. 13 "accurate knowledge".

  The reader is pushed along to LINK in the mind in order to FALSELY CONCLUDE:

  
  Knowledge of the Watchtower "Truth" started out dim, but over the years has brightened by becoming more and more "accurate."

  ________________

  Read the verse immediately previous:

  
  11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

  ________________

  Personal growth and maturity is not a matter of reading Watchtower publications!

  Human beings gradually learn about themselves by looking back on their own behavior. It is how we grow.

  ἐπιγινώσκω (epiginōskō)

  Strong: G1921

  GK: G2105

  pr. to make a thing a subject of observation; hence, to arrive at knowledge from preliminaries

  ____________________

  This teaching method of Jehovah's Witnesses is intended to direct attention toward the INDISPENSABLE NATURE OF THE GOVERNING BODY.

  As if you could learn about yourself by listening to their private interpretations!

  _______________

  WHAT CAN WE CONCLUDE?

  The Watchtower Society tries to make Bible verses which are about PERSONAL GROWTH AND MATURITY and BEHAVIOR

  into Bible verses about THE GOVERNING BODY.

  It's all about THEM, you see; not US!