Terry

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Posts by Terry

• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

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• 

  Terry

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zO_Cyho90Y
  
  
  
  The first 3 minutes only.
• 
  28

  PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  setting the scene.

  pastor russell died in 1916. those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as russellites.

  you could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  Zeb: Spiritual guidance? feed the hungry, house the poor, shelter the orphans; do unto each other as ye would have them do unto you....................... and stop forever the practise of making fool predictions!

  ________________

  The form of worship that is pure and undefiled. . .

  So foreign to JW mindset.

  They have no heart for human beings only invisible rulers and locksetp marching to rules.
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  "Only those who are truly loyal will remain."
  _____________

  What is fascinating about that comment is this.

  Take two events, 1925 and 1975. Members who left were

  looked upon as culled from the herd. This meant those who remained were more devout (i.e. deeper cognitive dissonance.)

  The net result of 1975 was an increase rather than a decrease in numbers of hardcore members.

  These "shake-ups" are Evolutionary events.
  The strong survive and the weak perish.
  
  I sincerely doubt there is a conscious effort just to "mess with" members by changing, altering, modifying, adjusting present "truth".

  It's more a question (I think) of piss poor planning and irrational thinking than a diabolical strategm.
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  I think that you're thinking too narrowly here - and too recently.

  _________
  The context of my comments are under the specific heading of the Topic and not an academic dissertation on the MYTH of what constitutes a monolithic religion.
  ________

  In my view, there is no such thing as Christianity. That is too general a term. But, most of us speak (for convenience sake) as though there is.
  Judaism was sectarian. Christianity even in the first 4 centuries was sectarian. Islam is sectarian. That is certainly historically true.
  
  What makes Jehovah's Witnesses so weirdly individual is the fluidity of its absolute authority in a narrow strip of time (roughly 100+ years.)
  (There has been no schism resulting in a Reform Church of JW's etc. as you will see in the Mormon church and other sects. Therefore, all the upheavals in teaching remain under one roof, so to speak.)

  The fixation on predicted dates and events is weird because it easily falsifies the premise of God's direction.

  Any hack politician knows better than to make definite statements that do not contain plausible deniability later:)

  JW's shoot from the hip and pretend the other guy drew first.
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  I'm not sure what the target of your point is, Joe.

  IF it is this: ** (see below)
  I'll save us the spelunking in the abyss of calculus as to what constitutes FIXED teachings.
  I'm making a comparative evaluation and not an absolute statement.

  JW's change their teachings far more often than, say, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics GENERALLY SPEAKING.

  I'm suggesting there is a far greater level of academic confidence in those above named denominations as to what Christianity (for then) requires of their members.

  The GB members in the Society are human Mood Rings rather than scholars. Whim and whimsy litter the history of changes to beliefs and practices.

  One glaring example is Romans 13: 1,2.

  Russell's view was that Superior Authorities had the right to require Christians to join the Army and go out onto the battlefield, but he advised that the Christian in uniform "fire over the heads" of the enemy.

  Rutherford changed the historic definition of Superior Authorities entirely and summarily to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. As a result, the Governments were stripped of the right to send Christians into uniform or the battlefield. This cataclysmic overhaul remained in effect until about 1963 when it was--just as summarily--flipped back to the traditional interpretation of Russell's day once again.

  However, under Knorr, a secret policy went into effect requiring JW boys to refuse their legally provided Alternate Service. Not because of the Rutherfordesque flip of Romans 13: 1,2--but rather because THEY SAID (the GB) it was a violation of "Christian Neutrality")
  

  This sort of morphology is common to cults and far less common in Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. "Mainstream" churches.

  This is the point I was striving to make. I hope this suffices to clarify.

  **______________________
  "Mainstream Christianity has FIXED teachings."

  I don't think so. The various christian sects and divisions have (as I understand it) a near 2000 year history of being at variance about their teachings and of changing, refining and adapting their teachings.
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
• 
  31

  "Ones"

  by Joe Grundy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (i never was a dub).. this is something which has intrigued me for a while.

  i don't know whether it's dub-speak, or us-speak.. it's the use of the word 'ones' as in 'interested ones', 'worldly ones', 'disfellowshipped ones' and so on and so on.. in the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.. thoughts?.

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• 

  Terry

  I might be way out on a limb here, but here goes anyway. . .

  I think the leaders of the Watchtower have depersonalized the human being by substituting their o.s. (operating system) and displacing individuality, conscience, curiosity, and intellect.

  Consequently, there are no PERSONS in membership.

  The Society runs off stats and stats of any and all kinds are only NUMBERS.

  So, the short of it is this. JW's are numbers (ones) and not people.
  
  An EX_JW is able finally to say this:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0LaT6qVRpg
  
  
  
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  "As you might expect of utterances of an Almighty Deity, no changes are necessary!"

  The fact that changes have been made might lead one to question the existence of an almighty deity and the nature of such utterances - in relation to all religions.

  _____________
  
  Religion, in my way of thinking, is like the MARVEL universe. You have a certain set of parameters which all the characters must align with in order to fit the scheme.
  (an Almighty Deity, rather than The Almighty Deity.)

  For me to speak of Christianity, I have to--from time to time--accept the rules of their mindset in order to be authentic to their logic scheme inside that context (rather than outside the mythos as an external nay-saying critic.)

  JW's theology fits inside the CHRISTIAN mythos as Don Quixote inside the romantic fiction universe. They are seemingly idiots with good intentions tilting at windmills for the honor of Dulcinea (Jehovah's honor).
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  "Mainstream Christianity has FIXED teachings."

  I don't think so. The various christian sects and divisions have (as I understand it) a near 2000 year history of being at variance about their teachings and of changing, refining and adapting their teachings.

  And what do you include as 'mainstream'?

  ___________________

  Mainstream = not cult

  Cults, by reason of their non-orthodoxy, run into problems requiring adjustment.

  The Mormons had to have a convenient "Revelation" to allow blacks into the Priesthood, for example.
  JW's run into foreign governments accusing them of this and that and the policy changes to avoid conflict.

  Catholic Doctrine has remained pretty constant. The changes which have come as a result of Science (apology to Galileo, acceptance of Evolution) and scholarly discovery (acknowledging certain Saints didn't exist) have not shaken core beliefs of Salvation or Magisterium.

  Jehovah's Witnesses and the World Wide Church of God, are examples of extreme makeovers. Internal dysfunction forces external modification.

  When the taxing of literature came up--the policy changed to "free literature" and probably started a snowball down a mountain somewhere leading eventually to today's ATM's in the Kingdom Hall :)

  The Roman Catholic Church remained the same for about a millennium and a half before the Protestant Reformation force them into their own housekeeping.

  The Protestant rethink led to denominations perforce of its openness to God's Divine guidance. Sola Scriptura (the man of God, one Bible, Holy Spirit) was a theory which got disproved very quickly! Apparently God "led" 40,000 different truth-oriented directions!
  
  Denominations are like city-states with a larger landscape. Everybody claims to be Christian without each atom, proton, electron being the same configuration on their chart of elements. (To strain a bad analogy).
• 
  29

  Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

  why not leave it alone?.

  mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  I have kept on asking myself WHY the JW's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own Doctrines?
  

  Why not leave it alone?

  Mainstream Christianity has FIXED teachings. As you might expect of utterances of an Almighty Deity, no changes are necessary!

  Can the same be said of Watchtower teaching? (Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha)
  _______________

  I have a conjecture to offer

  1. The Doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses (Post 1931) began as perversions of Russell's theological opinions.

  2. Russell's writings were perversions of mainstream Christian doctrines.
  

  That's 2 strikes already!

  3, Finally, what was published during the Rutherford regime was what Fred Franz was ordered/forced/cajoled into producing to prop up his good friend J.F. Rutherford's crackpot schemes, notions, and tomfoolery. After the death of Rutherford, Franz set about trying to "correct" the Judge's strange, unorthodox and just-plain-weird interpretations.

  4. Fred Franz's transformations became his private Theology--much of which didn't stand up to practical everyday wear and tear in the real world!

  We might say without fear of error, THE TRUTH was pretty much whatever momentary whim Fred Franz coughed up like a hairball.
  ________________________

  I would assert this set a foundation of principle:

  EVERYTHING is up for grabs

  _________________

  Brother Raymond Franz has told us he believed that all the Watchtower leaders were "captives of a concept" which he explained was circular reasoning. "We are guided by Jehovah's holy spirit. We are the only TRUE religion."

  
  With that self-belief, these men just could not help but trim-the-moustache constantly trying to even out the imbalances.

  It would be like a poor mother with too many kids and hand-me-down clothes in constant need of repair. Watchtower Doctrines are basically just that: Hand-Me-Downs! I'll fitting, awkward, and always out of fashion.
  __________________

  FREE FOR ALL

  After the death of the Watchtower Society's "oracle," there was a free-for-all approach to just about anything that caught a GB member's personal fancy. Much of it centered on discipline, enforcement, and a proliferation of hardcore pronouncements (rules) leading to disfellowship.

  So many patches have been sewed on the same fabric, there really is not any "there" there!

  The entire constructed Doctrine is held together by assertions of authority and appeals to intricate fallacies. Each new GB member can have a go at it.

  What then?
  _________________

  YOU'VE GOT IT ALL WRONG

  Very smart outside JW's all over the world have been writing and mailing treatises CORRECTING the errors of the WT leaders for decades.

  These "corrections" annoy the hell out of the GB, of course. It's clearly no vote of confidence to be told, "You've got it all wrong."

  So, the GB go into defensive / offensive overdrive.
  Result?

  Those outside (helpful) critical writers (Carl Olaf Jonsson, et al) are made out to be enemies and everybody in the respective congregation who has read a copy of the "corrections" got singled out for quarantine, Inquisition, and possible extinction.

  Afterward--the writing committee went into overdrive again and again gently tweaking, repairing, "adjusting" and obliterating the (now) obvious mistakes. All of this silently, stealthily, of course.
  __________
  

  FORCED CHANGES

  The most recent GB's overhaul of this religion is proof positive of at least one thing. THEY ALL agree it was a mess that needed cleaning up!

  This is why a steady drumbeat has been pounding for 45 years or so. LOYALTY

  LOYALTY, fealty, solidarity and unquestioning obedience is demanded.

  This makes it impossible for a "thinking" JW with curiosity about ridiculous changes (overlapping generations) to stand up and ask for clarification. They are soon marked.
  
  I would go so far as to say, most of the BLOOD doctrine changes have been driven by two things:

  1. Letters and phone calls from desperate people.

  2. Legal problems in foreign countries.

  You can be certain too of the obvious need for forced changes stemming from the lawsuits and investigations into Pedophile cover-ups.
  
  If JW's had genuine Divine Truth directly from Scriptures and Holy Spirit--ask yourself why it would ever be necessary to amend, adjust, correct and flip-flop any of it?
  We change our underwear for obvious reasons.
  

  ____________

  Maybe the Watchtower Truth doctrines keep changing for a similar reason. They all amount to a brown, fragrant stain on the reputation of Jehovah.
• 
  28

  PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  setting the scene.

  pastor russell died in 1916. those who had 'followed' him were known pejoratively as russellites.

  you could call it a 'cult of personality' if you wanted to sneer.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Terry

  The boardroom meeting where they discussed this idea would have been fascinating to hear.
  ___________

  The closest we ever got to the "fly on the wall" was in Ray Franz's writings.

  His preconceived idea of what the GB meetings would be and how spiritually the protocol would be conducted was a deflating experience.