Posts by Confession

87

Black Families & Shunning

by snowbird in

after reading password's blog on freeminds, and following the thread about the 7/09 awake, i am saddened to hear the experiences of so many who have been shunned by their families.. i confess that when i first started reading at this site - 8 years ago - i couldn't believe what i was seeing.

i knew that df'd persons were to be excluded from any spiritual interaction, but i'd never personally witnessed the extreme shunning that the society encourages.. i've often mentioned that this seldom happens in black families.

of course, i have no statistical evidence to back this up, but i have yet to see a family in my area practice this kind of shunning.

Confession

UC, as Snowbird wrote...

"Although reasons for this may be as varied as the families..."

For me, I don't seem to need to know why. I've just always noticed it's the way (generally) things have been. I also observed that, in most inner-city, black congregations, there was a lot more "reaching out," that is to say personal, warm hugs, touching, etc. Do you see this among many white families too? Sure. But if you were to single out which people tend to do this more than others, I think you'd see it among families where there's been a history of hardship. And, although many white families have experienced this too, there's a great denisty of it among African American families.

Don't misunderstand me. I think MANY of us tend to allow former hardships to define our present--and this is to our detriment and not ultimately healthy. And I'm not saying this makes black families any more "loving" or "caring." I think it just means there is a strong desire to "cling" together, and thus a somewhat greater resistance to someone trying to separate them. (I mean, if I had to offer an opinion as to why.)

87

Black Families & Shunning

by snowbird in

after reading password's blog on freeminds, and following the thread about the 7/09 awake, i am saddened to hear the experiences of so many who have been shunned by their families.. i confess that when i first started reading at this site - 8 years ago - i couldn't believe what i was seeing.

i knew that df'd persons were to be excluded from any spiritual interaction, but i'd never personally witnessed the extreme shunning that the society encourages.. i've often mentioned that this seldom happens in black families.

of course, i have no statistical evidence to back this up, but i have yet to see a family in my area practice this kind of shunning.

Confession

I have definitely noticed that black JW families tend to be more open to communication with DFd family members. Probably the more a family has gravitated away from their culture and toward absolute acceptance of the cult, the more you may see them in lock-step with the organization. Yes, I've seen very hard-core, black JWs shun family--and I've seen white JWs fail to shun them. But, on the whole, I think African-American families just can't stomach turning their backs on family.

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

You make some good points, Confession.
I guess the difference is perception - when the 'higher ups' get something wrong, the amount of damage done can be a few orders of magnitude more than when the individual gets it wrong. But the individual is still wrong.

Agreed. The idea behind this thread is something that transcends this issue. For many years, but lately in particular, I believe this issue keeps entering my consciousness to teach me an important lesson. In the weekend job I have, I find myself (for instance) surrounded by associates who look for every POSSIBLE reason to find fault with the company. They leap to point out things that they suspect are not as ultimately ideal as they would have them, how the company should be taking extraordinary measures to reward and please them...all while they sit and forge fake receipts to turn in for expense reimbursement with smirks on their faces.

And I get a kick at how the majority look the other way, find excuses, and generally make the way smooth for us to have a different set of standards for The People Up There vs. The People Down Here.

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

Bing bing bing! At last we have a rare, specific response to what I was trying to discuss. (Sorry if I wasn't clear.)

Do we tend to excuse "the people down here," but angrily condemn "the people up there"?
I can excuse 'the people down here' for trying to live their lives as best they can and sometimes getting it wrong.
The 'people up there', on the other hand, put themselves up there. They want to have authority over those below, and with great power comes great responsibility. In the WT case, the Governing Body has positioned themselves as God's voice on earth, and are eager to tell everyone how they should live.
They want the authority - and when they get it wrong and create a system that starts hurting people - they should be held responsible for it.

This is the best example so far of what I find to be the case. I was just waiting for someone to say "with great power comes great responsibility." But I will suggest that--while there is much truth in this concept--it is also used as a deflection in a situation such as this. The woman who chose not to report this recent case of pedophilia was fully aware of the consequences of her actions. She, having been a victim of molestation as a child herself, knows well the sick, sad ramifications of child abuse. She is aware that this person will likely do it again to some other child. So to suggest that she's just "getting it wrong," is to suggest that she doesn't really understand the consequences--when in fact she does.

And, yes, if we want to discuss how wrong it is for ANY organization to put themselves in the position the WTS has, we can do that. We can talk about them having to accept responsibility for everything they do. But it does NOT excuse those who are not in a position of authority when they fail to do EXACTLY those things we will condemn an organization for. And it is hypocritical of us to look past the behavior of individuals in this regard--while angrily denouncing organizations for the same thing.

The reason why the WTS is wrong for not reporting is, among other things, they are failing to do their part to halt the ugly cycle of pedophilia, despite their having the ability to do so. But a mentally competent parent--aware of the consequences--is in PRECISELY the same position when pedophilia is visited upon them. They have "put themselves up there" in a sense too, haven't they? They have chosen to be parents and have accepted the authority and responsibility that comes with it. And they TOO have failed to do their part in helping to halt the cycle of child molestation.

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

Hi Kudra...

"I most definitely agree that individuals that don't report abuse (in this case of the WT vs individuals) are every bit as responsible -more so in my mind as they have first hand knowledge of the crimes. I think that this falls most heavily in the laps of the elders."

I thought we were in agreement toward the beginning of the above piece, but now I'm not so sure. So let me make my question even more obvious...

Situation #1) A child is molested within the JW organization, and because of institutional rules and manipulation, the congregation fails to report.

Situation #2) A child in no way attached to any religious organization whatsoever is molested, and the parent (who is in full possession of his/her mental faculties and understands the potential ramifications) fails to report.

Will you hold the parent in Situation #2 every bit as accountable as the congregation in Situation #1? Or not?

Choosing Life wrote...

"When you are dealing with child molestation, you are in murky waters from the start. My personal belief is that every case should be reported by any individual that knows the situation and the child should receive the proper care. There should be zero tolerance by organizations and individuals."

I'm with you.

Zid wrote...

"Having said all of that, a rape reported second-hand?? The alleged victim's fleshly sister comes to me and says, "You won't believe what Brother Ravager did to my sister! He dragged her into the women's bathroom while they were cleaning the hall and raped her!"
What do I do here??? Go to the police??? Second-hand information isn't worth diddlly-squat. Go to Sister Abused and ask her??? "Your sister, Sister Bigmouth, said...." Yeah, that'd work.... Sheesh! Life is complicated! I guess I'd report it to the police anyway, but when I mentioned that the info was third-hand - they'd tear up the report sheet..."

Right, again, I understand how you might not be trusted or believed. But, also again, if you really think about it, the congregation is in the same position as you are, right? The congregation is only getting it third hand. Usually no elder was an actual eyewitness. In this way your reporting is the same as theirs. Of course the good news is...

-If you make a report, the police can at least look into it. This might move the eyewitness/parent to come forward and deal with it.

-Even if you make a report that cannot be prosecuted, the police can at least have a record of alleged "prior bad acts," to be used in the future if and when another such report comes to them.

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

I'm really wondering why so few, longtime board contributors don't want to touch this one.

27

This looks like a good place to introduce myself

by mindmelda in

hi, i'm 49 and have been an inactive witness for years now.

i was baptized at age 16 about 33 years ago mainly to please my parents and to fit in, cuz everyone was doing it.

and i was able to answer all those questions in the organization book because i have a near photographic memory, as it turns out.

Confession

Enjoyed your writing very much melda. :o) I especially liked this...

"The one constant is that if it feels good, for the love of God, don't do it, even if you're married."

Good to have you here.

11

Do You See Communism as a Threat?

by sammielee24 in

jw
friends

this was an interesting article (part of it) from the bbc website.

sammieswife.. fists in the air.

lined up on a set of steps near the diet, wearing suits, red sashes and beaming smiles were officials from the japanese communist party.. they joined the protesters chanting and raising their fists in the air.. the communist party has always had a surprisingly large role in japan, the world's second biggest economy.. but while it had been fading towards irrelevance, now as the recession bites it is on the rise again.. the party already has more than 400,000 members and people are joining at the rate of 1,000 a month.. in comparison, the membership of the liberal democratic party, the largest member of the governing coalition, is twice the size.

Confession

"But I think in communism society we can think about whole of the society and decide our economic activities in democratic way."

Lovely. Why don't we just give it a try, huh? It's always failed miserably. But maybe this time!

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

I suppose this is a reason why some of us stop posting here as much as we used to. Certainly we love to see the flow of new contributors, since generally it means more and more JWs are starting to "figure it out," or at least more and more people are finding a forum to discuss things JW-related.

Some of the things being discussed in this thread are things that have played out over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... I think longtime contributors (including those who are familiar with the work of Silent Lambs) would agree that the position ex-JWs, JW reformers and/or child abuse activists take is that the Watchtower Society (along with many other religious organizations) has been a "pedophile paradise." They have historically discouraged--and even threatened--members from reporting abuse to the authorities. When I was an elder in the mid to late 90s, we were instructed "neither to encourage nor discourage" reporting, but there has been consistent pressure not to do anything that might reflect badly on "Jehovah's Organization."

Further, the consensus has been that pressure should be placed on the WTS to inform the abused and their parents of their absolute right and responsibility to report--and that congregations themselves should do so. It is recognized that any religious body has the right to hold their own judicial hearings on such matters, but that it is NO REPLACEMENT for reporting abuse to qualified law enforcement officials.

So forgive please my interest in not re-examining already played out subjects. If you still want to discuss who should report and other things associated with it, that's fine. But in this thread I'm hoping to focus comments--not broadly--but specifically on the original, primary point.

For those ex-JWs who have taken the rightfully strong position that organizations must inform the legal authorities when they discover pedophilia among their members... For those who have a history of righteous indignation toward the WTS over this issue...do you have a separate set of standards for individuals who similarly fail to report? Or shouldn't they be held just as accountable?

25

The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession in

do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual?

how about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?.

it seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here.".

Confession

I was hoping that comments could be focused on the original, primary point made. Could you try to make specific comments about the following...

-If it's horribly wrong for the Watchtower Society (or any other organization) not to report child sexual abuse, is it not every bit as horribly wrong for an individual not to report?