The People Up There vs. The People Down Here

by Confession 25 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Confession
    Confession

    Do you ever detect a difference in the way people make evaluations of an organization, as compared to an individual? How about a difference between the way people judge one who holds an office of some sort, compared to one who doesn't?

    It seems to me that many people have a different set of standards for, say, "the people up there" as opposed to "the people down here."

    Some years ago, on this forum, I told my multi-part story of having chaired a JW judicial committee that addressed charges of pedophilia leveled at an elder in our congregation. Before the entire story was told, quite a few people here were more than ready to condemn me for ever having been part of a system that had often been woefully ineffective (and sometimes intentionally so) in the area of protecting children from this danger. The comments usually centered around how disgusting it was that the organization wouldn't turn in those they found guilty to the law enforcement system.

    While I did not understand that as my role years ago as a thirty-one year old, born-in, indoctrinated JW, I certainly had my eyes opened in this area (and many others) upon leaving and coming to understand that the sick cycle of pedophilia will not be stopped unless people are willing to take this legal action.

    But during that time, I couldn't help but notice what I felt was an inconsistency of attitude. There were individual ex-JWs on this forum whose children had been abused who did not--either when they were a JW or since their departure--report it. I told the story of how the families involved in the case I chaired--many of them never having been indoctrinated JWs--chose not to report the pedophile from our congregation either. No one seemed to care about individuals who failed to report, but they were intensely inflamed about the Watchtower Society's failure to do so.

    In fact, a few years ago, as this subject was being discussed on a particular thread, I asked the ladies there a personal question.

    "If your female friend had been raped by a person you knew--but she decided not to come forward about it--would you go around her to the authorities and report it anyway?"

    Every answer I received was that they wouldn't. But what about the likelihood that this perpetrator would rape again? If you have knowledge of such a thing, isn't it just as irresponsible for you not to prevent a future rape--as it is for an organization who also fails to do so?

    Do we tend to excuse "the people down here," but angrily condemn "the people up there"?

    Yesterday a dear friend told me that her three-year-old daughter had shown signs of having been molested by her 70 year old nanny. This is the closest this sort of thing has come to me personally, since she is the widow of my best friend who died this past August, a man whom I considered my brother. I was incredibly sad and upset to hear this as she told the story to me and another woman we work with. At some point, I asked, "Did you ever consider reporting her to the police?"

    She shrugged her shoulders, saying that, despite the very strong evidence, she didn't actually have the abuse on video tape or anything. The other woman chimed in loudly that it would be a mistake to report her, since Child Protective Services could remove the children from her home, and it could cause a complicated mess.

    While I can understand the reasons offered, I don't see how they outweigh a persons responsibility to try and prevent future sexual abuse. Further, I can't help but reflect on the difference in the way people judge individuals (whom they may identify with) and organizational structures (whose power they may feel alienated by.)

    The Watchtower Society's failures in the area of pedophilia are indeed abominable. But if I'm going to be the righteous person I wish to be, I cannot comdemn any less an individual who similarly fails.

    We are hypocrites to condemn "the people up there," if we do not also respond similarly to "the people down here."

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    "If your female friend had been raped by a person you knew--but she decided not to come forward about it--would you go around her to the authorities and report it anyway?" .....

    That's a hard one. My first response would be to report it. But the poor authorities would have a dickens of a time prosecuting it if my friend - by that point, ex-friend - didn't want to report it in the first place... Wouldn't be the first time I lost a friend over principles...

    I think - this is a big maybe here... I'd report it anyway, based on the legal precedent of - if one gains knowledge of a murder after the fact, and does not report it to the authorities, one then becomes an accomplice to murder after-the-fact...

    Although I've never heard of this legal attitude being applied in the case of knowledge of an unreported rape, I would probably go ahead and report it - and brace myself for the denials, denials, denials of my now-ex-friend who would now be furious at me....

    I was curious enough about this issue to call the local police department and ask the desk sergeant what the official policy would be... He stated that, in the case of an un-cooperative victim - he initially called it a 'victimless' crime - the state would be handicapped in prosecuting the case. He went on to say that if - IF - there was sufficient evidence to prosecute WITHOUT the victim's cooperation, the state would go ahead with the case. Unfortunately, this is a crime - these are crimes [rape, child molestation] that target the segments of human society that generally lack power...

    BTW, since by this time the officer was wondering whether I was talking about a real case, I mentioned the JWs and the WTBTS; the alleged number of cases in the WTBTS files in Brooklyn and the 16 lawsuits settled - with accompanying gag orders... Gave him a bit more information than he started out with...

    Sad. Very sad. Hope this post sort of answers your question... Zid

  • Confession
    Confession

    He stated that, in the case of an un-cooperative victim - he initially called it a 'victimless' crime - the state would be handicapped in prosecuting the case.

    Understood. And yet isn't this the same with a congregation elder who reports such a crime. He can't prove it. It was only his little kangaroo court that came to the conclusions it did--with, usually, no one except the victim who can be considered an eyewitness. But, according to the people who have contributed to this forum (with whom I happen to agree,) that is no excuse. Just because the police might not be able to successfully prosecute is NO reason not to report.

    And if it's wrong for a JW congregation not to report--it is equally wrong for an individual not to report.

    Right?

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Good point, Confession! I have - in the past - reported crimes to the police, whether they happened to me or to others... But, I'm jesst a 'busybody'!!

    Actually, I've reported a few cases of drunk driving and road rage to the cops - police - while in transit. Good thing they haven't made driving while talking on a cell phone illegal - yet... I usually pull over (that's what emergency lanes are for) and make my calls, or park in a parking lot or neighborhood...

    Getting back to the point... I never caught a JW doing anything illegal. If I had - well, I wasn't that enamored of the religion - beaten into it by my dad and manipulated by my mom - I think I would have reported any JW crimes just to be contrary... Zid

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    I too struggle to understand the feelings about the organization having most of the responsibility and individuals having little.

    I can see both sides though. I just try to hold the org 100% responsible for their role in things and inviduals 100% responsible for their roles.

    Your example of reporting rapes illustrates the issue well. My personal choice would be to report a child's victimization even if the parents refuse, and not to do so for an adult. An adult is more aware of the ramifications of this and is less vulnerable to manipulation.

    Applying this to an individual adult's choices to participate in institutional psychological abuse vs. the org itself--the org is responsible for its role (lying, manipulating, bullying, threatening) and the individual is responsible for his own actions (not checking into teachings, in some cases choosing not to treat people with kindness or do the right thing in order to submit to groupthink, etc.).

    I do mostly blame the org.

    I feel guilt for being a part of the org, albeit a very small and short-lived one (as an adult anyway). I hold myself responsible for it.

  • Confession
    Confession

    "I just try to hold the org 100% responsible for their role in things and inviduals 100% responsible for their roles."

    That sounds like my view too.

    "My personal choice would be to report a child's victimization even if the parents refuse, and not to do so for an adult. An adult is more aware of the ramifications of this and is less vulnerable to manipulation."

    Can we explore this? Isn't a primary reason for the anger directed at the WTS the fact that not reporting doesn't protect potential future victims? I mean, in your example, we are examining the ramifications of the victimization we already know about. Usually, once people know about it, it's going to stop--for that person. Great, we've halted this one abuse. But what about the knowledge that most predators will definitely abuse again? What about all the people they are likely to abuse/molest in the future? To test this, how would you feel if the organization found out there was a rapist in the congregation--and did not report it? Would you allow for this as a choice--just as you would for an individual?"

    "I do mostly blame the org."

    I could be misunderstanding, but this sentence seems to suggest that it's almost a decision about who to blame. I can say I "fully" blame the org. But my point here is that--if we are going to fully blame the org--then don't we ALSO have to fully blame the individual who similarly fails to report? And if we say we can understand or excuse a person for not reporting, don't we also have to ease off our position on an organization's not doing so?

    Or, again, is there a difference between "The People Up There" and "The People Down Here"?

  • GromitSK
    GromitSK

    I suppose it depends on the role of the person discovering the suspected abuse. In my opinion the abused person is the primary concern, not what might or might not happen to others. So the first step would be to determine what is in the victim's best interest. Parents make that sort of decision for their children in my opinion unless they are incapable. If their decision is based on the reputation of a religious organisation, or the abuser's reputation or fear of retribution then that is clearly wrong.On the other hand certain agencies, at least in the UK, are legally obliged to report cases of suspected abuse to the Police. This will almost always prompt an investigation of some kind and would not normally result in Social Services removing children unless the Courts were of the view that this was in the child's interest. That's the theory anyway.

    Where adults are concerned I would say that it is always better for the victim to report the offence than someone else doing it for them without their consent. This gives them a measure of control back. Forcing people to go recall an offence in the formality of a Police Station without their proper consent is not helpful although it may prevent the offender from hurting other people I don't think that makes it ok to violate the victim's right to make their own choice.

  • angeleyes110900
    angeleyes110900

    If abuse is reported to anyone, they should go to the authorities. No organization has the right to investigate and determine what they feel should be done. Detectives, child abuse agencies and prosecutors are trained how to find out the truth. If someone makes up a wild accusation, that's up to authorities to conclude, not a religion that believes they are so righteous, and they are the only ones that God shows favor upon or listens to!

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee

    Couple of thoughts:

    her three-year-old daughter had shown signs of having been molested. At some point, I asked,
    "Did you ever consider reporting her to the police?"
    She shrugged her shoulders, saying that, despite the very strong evidence, she didn't actually have the abuse on video tape or anything. The other woman chimed in loudly that it would be a mistake to report her, since Child Protective Services could remove the children from her home, and it could cause a complicated mess.

    Actually the next step would be reporting to the police, who would arrange for the child to be examined medically and by a forensic psychologist. Questioning a child of three requires very specific training and qualifications. CPS does not remove children from their homes without proper investigation.

  • GromitSK
    GromitSK

    CPS does not remove children from their homes without proper investigation -

    yes they do if they consider the child to be at risk before a full investigation can be completed. This is true in the UK anyway. In the UK at any rate it is the Courts who authorise removal of the child in the first instance. They often don't have a lot of evidence at that stage.

    In the case of children I can't think of a good reason for the parents not informing the Police. In the case of abuse against adults I think it is for the victim to decide who they talk to.

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