this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
I personally think that unconditional love and god are exactly the same and can be interchanged.Teaching children that god can have his feelings hurt.. and not love you anymore is a terrible thing. God is not a vindictive parent.
So we all gain salvation, because God is Unconditional Love? Your free to have that opinion, but I don't see it as Bible based.
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
Frobrisher: I never said I hated them. In fact I love them and I am always here waiting for them in case they choose to come around...
Now that I find healthy thinking. I wish you all the best. . .go make it happen.
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
Seattleniceguy:
Thanks for explaining your point of view on conditional love.
But just as in your illustration, doesn't God want us to become something, and if we don't he draws away from us? Or does God love everyone no matter what you become? In that case, no need for Armageddon, things are the way God intended?
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
All love is conditional. God loves conditionally. Unconditional love is obsession, or mental illness. In all fairness to your family and friends, from their point of view, are showing love for you by shunning you. It may not be the view you subscribe to, but I don't take the shunning I get as hate for me.It is insensitive for you to say that to me because you do not know me. And you have effectively ignored the rest of the good points I brought up.
Sorry, I just have this thing about "unconditional" love. Your right I wasn't aware of your situation, but I think my advice still applies. This is their thinking, right or wrong. They seem to have taken it upon themselves to DA you. Don't take the fact that you found a consensus of people who think something is right or wrong, as something to base your thinking on what is right or wrong. I can find people who think sex with animals is okay (sorry, just needed some shock value for effect), or people who think it's wrong to eat cheese. My point is, you most likely will not change your families minds, make your mind up about what you want to do, and accept the fact that you'll have to do it without them in your life. Don't hate them, pity them if you like, but they do this according to a belief sturcture that they subscribe to, I don't think there is any malice on their part involved. Best of luck to ya.
god is life (john 5:26).
god is truth (john 17:3).
god is eternal (psalms 90:2).
Remember this rule when debating about God. (or any topic for that matter.)
"The one who believes the least, always wins."
Thus the Nilist always win. . . .cause when backed into a corner, it always comes down to "How do you know you even exist?" With no soild way to prove that you even exist, the God question becomes irrelevant. With this kind of circular logic you can at least bring the debate to a draw. And since, being a nilist, you don't believe anything anyhow, a draw is a win!
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
First off, I want to thank everyone for their replies. Some of you have questioned my motivation for coming here. I found this site completely by accident. I was looking for a web-site to make myself a corporation and stumbled across this site. (Internet search engines seem to have a mind of there own.) I got to reading, and thought I'd post my questions and thoughts, see what the reactions were, a probe of sorts. This being a public forum, I wanted to see if different points of view were accepted, or if it had a one track mind of it's own. I have tried to be diplomatic and sympathetic but straight forward and honest. I myself have experience pain and loss in my lifetime, no one gets by unscathed. I've found that the more that you fixate on the source of your pain, the less you are healing. I will say that I see those willing to help others on this site, and I commend you for it. But, there is also this nit-picking that goes on, I mean who cares if the WTS was part of the UN (and yes I've read up on it, on both sides). If that convinces you that it's a false religion, fine. . . now move on with a new life free of that.
blonde:
Hi Frobisher; while some might hate; most of what you see is outrage at the real harm WTS policies and doctrines have caused people who post here.
In my experience (and that's all I really have to draw from), outrage and such emotions rarely come from rational places. I'm not saying people should never become outraged, it's just not a good state in which to draw conclusions. I've come to may a conclusion, while outraged, that seemed sound at the time, linking up the "facts" and even convincing others, but later with a cool head and in retrospect, I was wrong. With that I've come to understand this little thing about life. . ."You can be completely right, and absolutely wrong." That one can be hard to digest, but I've found it's true from time to time.
jwbot:
They had what is called "conditional love" and that is not the type of association I can have and be mentally sound.
All love is conditional. God loves conditionally. Unconditional love is obsession, or mental illness. In all fairness to your family and friends, from their point of view, are showing love for you by shunning you. It may not be the view you subscribe to, but I don't take the shunning I get as hate for me.
avishai:
Do you think it's healthy for the brothers to not turn in a child molester, who goes on to molest tons more children? Do you? Do you think it's healthy for the brothers to cover it up, time and time again, in the interest of "Defendiing Jehovahs name"?
I think I answered that. This is not a problem isolated in the WTS, this happens in all over the world all the time. I've personally seen 2 child molesters, not related to the WTS at all, go free with the backing and support of their community.
They become addicted to the attention, so they become the perpetual victim, and whine about their wounds, but never really heal.I think that that scenario is pretty rare.
I don't think this isn't rare at all, I think this is the base thinking of all reverse-racism, as in "Our people were oppressed for years in the past!", or "Those people come here and take our jobs!"
Poztate:
NOW...Try to write a letter that says...gee I just don't want to be a JW anymore,but I haven't done anything wrong so could I just leave with no fuss.Don't make me laugh...You would be DA'ed in the blink of an eye.No more friends..no more family.You are treated the same as DF'ed persons. They are just waiting to pull the trigger on you.
I know people who have done it. Never said there wasn't consequences, every choice we make has them. And yes, I agree it is a earthshaking move to make, my comments, in looking back, seem not to convey that.
Special K:
Since you're disfellowshipped and all your family remained as J.W.s am I to take thatyou are 100% shunned by them, not welcome in their home, no phone calls, no contact...etc.
You probably haven't seen your parents and the rest of your JW family since being disfellowshipped as has been the WTS curse on a lot of us disfellowshipped. Hmm? interesting that you are not bitter about any of that kind of treatment by your family.
I am 100% shunned by my family. I doubt they would pass me by if I was bleeding on the road, but no contact. I once had an elder in my former cong. help me change a flat tire on the side of the road. I was the middle child also, so I was kinda use to feeling like I was on the outside. I also have many friends, one who chose to become one of JW, and shunned me. I'm not bitter about any of that. They get to make choices about their lives, I get to make choices about mine. They don't hate me, why should I hate or resent them? They don't shun my children, and I don't keep my children from my family. In the end, the important thing to remember is no one else defines who I am. . .only I do.
BLISSISIGNORANCE:
I also hate how some get pleasure out of tormenting people who are trying to find peace after enough suffering. Your manner of reproof disguised as an intellectual discussion smells so strongly like when the elders were trying to force me and my family (including my abused child) to LOVE the pedophile who abused my child and accept him because he only did it once. Being told to do this while the pedo would smirk and stare my terrified child out at the meetings was like being sexually abused and violated over and over again. Day in, day out. Having you try to defend the WTS to me while judging and condeming me is like abuse. You should repect what we have all been through and keep YOUR opinions about OUR feelings based on experiences WE had, to YOURSELF!!!!!!
I never ask you to feel anything, forgive anyone etc. . . I'm not the one who has hurt you! You are projecting! I haven't defended the WTS, or told you to believe they are right or wrong. . .not my place. You come here and give your pain and experiences a public voice, you've opened them to others opinions, you shouldn't take only those that make you feel good inside, take them all, weigh them and come to your own conclusions. Feel free to question me if you like, that's all I was doing.
You are so insensitive and cruel............and assuming! typical JW thinking, feeling and reasoning. Let's get one thing straight. We are NOT victims here. We are SURVIVORS and I'm proud to be associated with the wonderful people on this forum who have had to endure much just because of the religion they were involved in! Many here have lost family and friends, mostly not by choice but by rules put into place by unloving men who prefer to follow the letter of the law rather than extend mercy.
If I have been insensitive, cruel and assuming, that was not my intention and I personally apologize.
I am NOT df'ed but I do get shunned. Why? Because I make too many JWs think. I upset their state of denial. They know that my child was abused but they prefer to pretend it didn't happen and avoid me. Hey, I'm happy. They bore me anyway. I have had the df'ing experience and I KNOW and can swear on a ton of bibles, with Jehovah as my witness that there is MUCH corruption amongst the elders. My child was sexually abused, I informed the authorities, the pedo confessed, the elders assured the authorities they would monitor and counsel the pedo, the elders told me not to tell anyone, only they were to know, the pedo went to social gatherings and played with kids, some of the mothers said they were concerned about the pedo playing with their kids, i warned them, the elders had to shut me up, they got 2 sisters to go as witnesses against me quoting something i said, which i didn't, I got df'ed for slander and the pedo laughed at me and my kid. The elders helped to keep the pedos reputation safe, while kicking me out. Oh, and my child never got a visit, a smile, or even a greeting from the elders, transparent to them! Villans???????? My god, that's to good to call them villains. What upsets me is that most of us on this forum are shunned from people we would love to spend time with just because they are JWs. We therefore come here for fellowship and trust people with our deepest emotions. Then we STILL get brow beaten by 'indecisive ones' like yourself. If people like you and GDT love the WTS and it's rules, FINE, but DO NOT COME HERE DEFENDING IT TO ME, making me have to explain and justify my stand. Who are you that we need to explain ourselves to you? And when we answer it's still not good enough. I don't mean to talk for everyone else, but I feel strongly about having a safe haven for myself, away from the Jehovah's Witnesses and their preaching!!!!!!
Please clear something up for me, you are or are not Df'ed? At the beginning you say you are not, then you say you got df'ed for slander? But I'll be the first to say your situation with the Elders and those sisters sounds completely messed up. I'm not mocking your pain. Your objection seems to be that my opinions don't belong here, I don't get that. I'm not an 'indecisive one', I just not one to jump on just any bandwagon. I've been Df'ed for well over a decade. I live my life by my terms, right or wrong, good or bad. I never said I love the WTS and it's rules, and never asked you to justify or explain anything. You simply have had a knee-jerk reaction, and think you know everything about me. Wrong! I speak from no "script", are you sure you don't? Just know that there are those who would take your pain and use it to push their own agendas. I'm not saying this is being done here! But to not have considered that. . . is well gullible.
I had so much more to say, but the time I can dedicate to organizing my thoughts, and writing them down is limited. . . .perhaps I will later, if my comments are still welcome.
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
I had a bunch of quotes and answers but it seems the forum had an error and ate them. . . .I'll repost my replys tomorrow. Thank you all for your feedbacks and points of view.
this is my first post here, though i have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
in the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, i?ll tell you about me.
i was raised as a witness, and have no real horror stories to tell.
Hello Everyone.
This is my first post here, though I have been browsing these forums over the last week for more than a few hours.
In the interest of full discloser, well as much as anyone would on a public forum, I?ll tell you about me. I was raised as a Witness, and have no real horror stories to tell. Most of my immediate family are Witnesses. I was disfellowshipped in the early ?90?s (Don?t quite remember the year.) for pre-marital sex. I have attempted to go back a few times, but it never seems to stick for me.
I just wanted to ask some questions based on my general first impression of this forum. Not all of these questions fit everyone, and I?m not attacking anyone and I don?t doubt that some of you have been done dirty, but . . .
Do you think it?s healthy to be bound together in hatred? I know you?ll say your giving each other support, and I?m sure you do, but the venom in the snide remarks and labels that you give the WTS, GB, Elders, and other brothers/sisters . . . is nothing more that hate.
Do you think it?s healthy to perpetuate yourselves as victims? This is something I think a lot of people do. (Not just on this forum.) They become addicted to the attention, so they become the perpetual victim, and whine about their wounds, but never really heal.
Which of you was unable to leave the JW?s due to a gun being held to your head? When I was a Witness, I was always given the impression that if the ?truth? wasn?t for you, then you were free to leave. Of course, there will be those who would try to ?help? you not leave and tell you that your decision was wrong. It would seem that somehow you?d make peace with no longer being a JW and stop fixating on them.
It seems that you try to villianize the JW?s for your disfellowshipping and the subsequence shunning that comes from former JW friends and your JW family members. Every Organization has rules, right or wrong, and you knew what would get you disfellowshipped, not saying that everyone got a fair shake, but that happens in life. The fact that your family and friends won?t talk to you is a decision they make, because of a decision you made, caused by all of you choosing, at some point or another, to live by these rules. The subtle way around this reality is to portray the WTS Organization as a monster or cult that has your former friends and family as victims, thus relieving them of any responsibility, in your eyes. (Not sure where the question was in that one, just an observation I guess.)
Also I?d like to ask the following questions, just out of curiosity, feel free to answer or ignore, cause they are personal questions:
Who here thinks they are Jehovah God?
Who here thinks they are Jesus Christ?
Who here thinks they are of the anointed?
Who here thinks they are going to heaven, but are not necessarily anointed?
I personally answer negative to all the above, just to be fair and answer them myself.
On another note I just want to say, that I realize that some of you were wronged by overzealous Elders, or molested by a so-called brother that went without punishment. I won?t sit here and deny that those things can?t or haven?t happened. You have my sympathy. I just know that I was never taught that anyone in the WTS Organization, from the Lowliest Publisher to the Governing Body, where infallible. With that said, mistakes will be and have been made, but we all have to answer for ourselves. Those with more responsibilities, have more to answer for.
My personal position is that I do not think I will ever return to the JW Organization, whether they are right or wrong, I don?t really know. I do believe in Jehovah, and that this system will have an end. How, Where, When . . . Jehovah knows. If I?m given life or judged as an apostate, I cannot argue with his final judgment of me, it will be absolutely fair.
I just want to take the time to re-state the fact that this is not an attack on this community, or any individual in it. My writing style has often been perceived as hostile when that wasn?t the intention. I do understand that these are emotionally charged issues, and I don?t know everyone?s situation and that along the way I?ve more that likely offended someone. I?ll apologize in advance.
