RE those exorcists I was just using them as an example that as you further pointed out its not enough to just speak the lingo - ie you must actually be called by God and then anointed by someone who holds the Priesthood.
I'm not suggesting that there haven't been christians in an unbroken chain nor does the LDS church claim that the Priesthood authority was removed in a physical act by God (no popes struck down by lightning), rather that when someone who doesn't have the right to the priesthood (such as a Roman political leader who lives a non christian life) claims the priesthood and then having done atrocious things while holding this priesthood supposes to be able to pass it on..the priesthood ceases.
I always found it interesting the relationship between the church and the apostle John while he was on Patmos - its almost as if he has no control / direction over the church and yet he is an apostle...
I don't want to dig on the popes but some of them (not all of course) where not what I would consider godly men (of course nobody is asking me to judge) and yet they were the head of the church - representing Jesus - I'm fairly certain that they did not have the priesthood. This means IMHO that the line of authority was broken - once broken I can't see any way to restore it RE the previous scriptures I listed.
Posts by Qcmbr
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31X-JW , X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years!
by Rod P inhi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
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Qcmbr
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21
JWs thoughts on Hell
by Oxnard Hamster inthe jws don't believe hell, as in the place where evil people are tortured for eternity, exists.
they reason that a loving god would not send his own creation to be tormented for eternity.. yet on the flipside, the jws preach that in 1914 (yeah, you all know this arguement.
) there was a big war in heaven, and satan and all his creatures were cast down to earth.
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Qcmbr
bttt
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31
X-JW , X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years!
by Rod P inhi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
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Qcmbr
Kenneson - just some observations about LDS and the apostasy:
The apostatsy or falling away has relation to the Priesthood line. The Priesthood is in LDS parlance the authority to act in Jesus' name and perform all the ordinances of salvation (baptism, sacrament etc..) The authority is given in a specific manner and must be given by someone who already possesses it:
(New Testament | Hebrews 5:1 - 4)
FOR every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron
(Old Testament | Exodus 29:4 - 7)
4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
5 And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
6 And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anoint him.
(Old Testament | Exodus 30:30)
30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)
7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
So people cannot just assume authority...see below for one example
(New Testament | Acts 19:13 - 16)
13 ΒΆ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
so either the Catholic church still has the authority or it lost it when Rome took it over. -
21
JWs thoughts on Hell
by Oxnard Hamster inthe jws don't believe hell, as in the place where evil people are tortured for eternity, exists.
they reason that a loving god would not send his own creation to be tormented for eternity.. yet on the flipside, the jws preach that in 1914 (yeah, you all know this arguement.
) there was a big war in heaven, and satan and all his creatures were cast down to earth.
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Qcmbr
Just struck me -- duh!
What is Satan doing here now, I mean what has he done while here on earth since 1914.. if he's been here almost 100 years he's achieved jack with all his angels (ie the world isn't all that different/worse from the last several thousand years of recorded history.) Right now in terms of things improving we have:
1/ Much better medicines and medical procedures
2/ Map of human genome
3/ Vast amounts of additional understanding of the world
4/ Huge population growth (so the death rate has fallen - fewer disasters and casues of death per person)
5/ Growth on an unprecedented scale of religion (including JWs) ie adults actually chosing it rather than being forced.
6/ A better standard of living in the west than has ever ever been enjoyed (King Soloman never had pizza according to latest records)
7/ Space travel
8/ Vast areas of the world at peace (last time the whole world was this peaceful was when the Romans had conquered most of it
All in all maybe the world is a better place now Satan is here according to that logic... -
37
What has been your most spiritual experience?
by Qcmbr inok highly loaded question but i'd like to know!
i come from the viewpoint that we are spiritual beings having mortal experiences ergo we are having constant spiritual experience that maybe makes it seem commonplace..i'd be interested if anyone else has noticed spiritual events happening?
i'll shoot first: .
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Qcmbr
OK highly loaded question but I'd like to know! I come from the viewpoint that we are spiritual beings having mortal experiences ergo we are having constant spiritual experience that maybe makes it seem commonplace..I'd be interested if anyone else has noticed spiritual events happening?
I'll shoot first:
1/ I think consciousness is itself fairly incredible.
2/ I think the ability to exercise free will (ie generally able to overcome basic animal responses and do the opposite of what other animals would do - e.g. get up at 5 am and study rather than sleep, wait till I get home to pee rather than on every tree I come across, put down the great tasting chocolate cake and eat carrot sticks while dieting rather than eating any raw carrion I find around on the ground and so on :) is mind blowing.
3/ The incredible feeling I get when I see other people succeed (watching the olympics , my kid sitting up for the first time ..)that to me is spiritual.
4/ Meditation - just locking myself away from outside and enjoying me without arguments / criticism / noise. How on earth can we do that!! -
25
Did you learn anything from the bible?
by JH indid reading the bible change anything in your life?
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Qcmbr
Hi Marshal,
Life created before it was on earth - bible hints:
1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, *****and all the host of them.******
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field *****before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew****: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:4 - 5)
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Old Testament | Job 38:4 - 7)
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the ******sons of God shouted for joy?********
(New Testament | John 3:13)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. -
25
Did you learn anything from the bible?
by JH indid reading the bible change anything in your life?
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Qcmbr
Loads and loads - has everyone here read it all?
Here's my quick list of things:
1/ History of Jesus as Jehovah and then as the Christ
2/ History of the Jews (and its probably the most incredible history ever recorded)
3/ Laws for dealing with people that are Not reflected in day to day society (most people probably glad about that - shrugs)
4/ Reverence for sacred things
5/ That men and women approach challenges in similar ways throughout history (ie goof up big time)
Here's my list of deep doctrine that is only hinted at:
1/ Creation - how the h*ll did that happen? - really.
2/ The flood and the ark - more going on there than a big boat ,8 people and Chester Zoo.
3/ Lost tribes of Israel - where are they...?
4/ Personal visits from Elohim and Jehovah - pretty interesting.
5/ Life before earth life and what happens when we die.
Here's my short list of things I didn't learn:
1/ Who created God
2/ When is Jesus coming back.
3/ How to walk on water.
4/ Who actually wrote the books of the bible.
5/ Where Mormons are prophesied. -
59
Which is worse - the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormons?
by inquirer inif someone put a gun to your head and you had to choose, which one would you say is the worst?
also, which religion is more doctrinally incorrect?
which religion has the most false end of the world dates?
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Qcmbr
Rod except - this must be a fairly difficult question since most of you havent been LDS - I haven't been JW (and I'm so biased I'm lying on my side.) I guess one thing I'd like to know is what is living in a predominantly JW neighbourhood like in comparison to a mainly mormon one? Forget theology - what are the social consequences like?
I don't live in either so I can't comment:) -
59
Which is worse - the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormons?
by inquirer inif someone put a gun to your head and you had to choose, which one would you say is the worst?
also, which religion is more doctrinally incorrect?
which religion has the most false end of the world dates?
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Qcmbr
Evil Force - may I suggest that's far too generalistic. In both churches there are plenty of people (the body of the church) who do actually love other people in their congregations and are inspired to do good and act charitably. Just becasue you disagree with the doctrine you can't lump all believers into that hole - personally I try to love people (varying degrees of success)- I've spent hours counselling, caring, doing service etc.. and I'd do it all again. Not everyone is unloving and uninspired.
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59
Which is worse - the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormons?
by inquirer inif someone put a gun to your head and you had to choose, which one would you say is the worst?
also, which religion is more doctrinally incorrect?
which religion has the most false end of the world dates?
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Qcmbr
LDS rock:)