Dan - I personally don't think there are men on the moon however, I don't think we've ever been there either. I like the odd conspiracy theory.
LT - it is very 'tempting' to be sparing with the full truth as you describe but having done my own share of missionary work there is one issue that I used to come up against - time (rather than dishonesty). Unlike JWs we tend to go for a baptism as soon as the individual feels the spirit - a lot more spontaneous approach than the longer JW book study approach (and I'm not saying that LDS speed is better) the point of suggesting baptism isn't at the full understanding of doctrine, its the point that born agains would probably allude to as the point of feeling saved - the witness from God of truth (in all honesty I doubt most christians know all the doctrine at the point when they convert?). I've baptised plenty of people that didn't understand the full doctrine but did actually know Jesus is the Christ. It's more often a balance between constantly saying , 'no - youre wrong this is what you should believe' and actually saying 'OK God says its true, saddle up and we'll teach you how to ride - we'll cover the theory of how to do it along the way.'
On the other hand , I'm still learning the doctrine and I've been a member all my life (and what I mean by that is despite knowing the textbook stuff I'm a bazillion miles away from actually practisisng it fully - I'm a bad lad;)
TD the widespread culture thing is definately a thorn in the side of LDS apologetics - I'll post some info in a sec - I'll just switch browsers.
Posts by Qcmbr
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87Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Wow - lots of questions - I've been to work in between my last post: OK I'll try and address each point with one caveat - I'm just a numpty - I'm not an official spokesperson for the church (lds.org for the public face). If I make mistakes blame me.
Why do LDS have "secrets?"
I don't hear much from the Mormons, I don't get them to my door what are you guys like door-to-door?
Qcmbr, what brings you to this forum?
Ev. LDS have secrets for two reasons:
1/ Some things are 'official' secrets and these are in regard to sacred things such as the temple. Though as many will happily point out the secrets are about as well hidden as the Eiffel Tower if you dig around the internet.
2/ The other secrets are the historical parts of the church's formation regarding such practises as polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Steve's moon men, Adam God theory, finacial practises, masonry, dannites, mountain meadows massacre etc.. these are the parts of lds history that the church doesn't dwell because 1/ There are few facts (take the moon men quote from the journal - that statement has no record in official church history or as church doctrine ) 2/ The church was in the wrong (and before anyone get's excited the only time I ever heard anything like this was one of our greatest prophets lamenting the fact that the priesthood should have gone to all men sooner and it was our failure that it hadn't) 3/ Current revelation supercedes it therefore we don't argue over it anymore (polygamy is not practised currently therefore anyone doing it is excommunicated however, the practise itself is only right or wrong depending on the commandment at the time - not inherantly so.)
As for door to door - depends on who you get - some are arrogant, cheeky, immature but the majority of our missionaries are happy, fun loving and genuinely pleased to be there. They aren't trying to scare anyone into church - just share the gospel and baptise everything that moves.
All in all the LDS church has done something incredible. It started with the purpose of building Zion and has done a pretty smart job so far.
LT - your points - spot on.
You use the Trinitarian language of "godhead" but don't actually mean that at all - we use the word Godhead to mean 'group' as in a united threesome, united in purpose in testifying of each other.
Whatever you say about people not needing to be LDS to be "saved", you do hold that they will have to be LDS if they are to reach the highest reaches of the after-life promises of God - but LDS is just a moniker. If we dropped that and said 'Christian' I think we'd agree..? Like I said all we really claim different from anyone else is real authority in the form of the Priesthood - and just as baptism was repeated in the bible so a little double dipping helps here:) Theis ties in with the idea of everyone joing the lds faith in purgatory - well no not quit. The LDS faith doesn't exist in (paradise;) just those who believe in Jesus and those who don't (yet). Baptism is required, just as birth and death are, to complete the plan. Everyone must be baptised regardless of faith ('Except a man be born of the water and the spirit he can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God') No one else is doing this for all of mankind - how can any 'christian' church believe that it is following God's plan if it doesn't have backup for those who never get to hear the message?
U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'
Steven - men on the moon. It is official church doctrine that the universe is inhabited by life on countless worlds. In all teh quotes given th eofficial church doctrine about teh Celestialisation of the earth and the inhabitation of the universe are alluded to - the moon part however, is their personal opinion. Who knows:) Its in all likelhood cobblers but you have to make a distinction between doctrine and opinion (i.e. all you Christians - do you keep your women quiet in the church, make them wear long hair?) Doctrine leads to action, opinion is fairly meaningless. If I as Elder's Quorum President claim that we never went to the moon - my church position does not lend it any weight - same with our prophets. They are not in some constant state of rapturous revelation. Good point about LDS not knowing their own history! Our history is one of the richest most biblical ever - filled with incredible miracles, angelic visitations, new scripture, intrepid escapes and our own exodus.
Blondie, exactly right about the conflicting laws. Puts a whole new slant on Adam and Eve. The whole plan hinged on Eve making the decision to leave the presence of God and on Adam being smart enough to follow. They are two of my heros. God wants us to grow on our own, we could never truly be free when the only two laws that could be broken involved eating fruit and making babies. That is why we call it a transgression. The law had to be broken.
Our heirarchy for doctrine is as follows:
1/ Word of the current prophet (i.e. you wouldn't have disbelieved Moses if he said something different to what he wrote yesterday.)
2/ Next doctrine of the church. Built up from words of modern and ancient prophets , including certain interpretations of bible scripture (an kind of example is the Articles of Faith I gave above).
3/ Book of Mormon (history of a group of Israelites), Doctrine and Covenants (our current church handbook of revelations) and Pearl of Great Price (additional scripture from the bible period) - simply becasue they aren't translated by scholars but by prophets.
4/ The Bible last - not because it is least respected , simply because it underpins everything else, it is our final yardstick and where it is internally in discord or is difficult to understand we then turn to our additional scripture / words of prophet for clarification.
Sorry that took so long. -
87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Hiya Ev.
Here's our stock answer of core belief's
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Here's my short list to add:
You must have a personal relationship with God and a conviction of the faith ('flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you') - we call it a testimony.
God/ Jesus/Holy Ghost - 3 seperate people. God and Jesus have bodies.
Jesus is Jehovah - God of old testament - it was His people He taught and died amongst.
Adam and Eve are honoured for giving us our turn on earth and the chance to return back to God after making our own mistakes and making our own way.
Free agency - the ability to make moral choices.
LDS church is a restoration and literal kingdom of God restored by God to a prophet not via well meaning individuals with a particular take on the bible.
Priesthood only given by someone who received it from somone who can trace their line of authority literally to Jesus Christ (via Peter, James and John)
Living prophet.
Continous new revelation and scripture.
Word of Wisdom - our health code (no alcohol, tea, coffee, non-medicinal drugs, eat healthy, look after your body.)
Tithes and Offerings. 10% of income or increase to church plus additional offerings as required plus once a month a fast and a donation to our welfare program.
Welfare program - money and food for members in need in return for work. Welfare program also provides emergency relief and humanitarian assistance worldwide.
Family Home Evening - Monday night is 'sacred' no activities outside family allowed/encouraged. Night for family to be together and have lesson/fun/quality time.
Temple - opportunity to do baptism for dead (ie we believe everyone who ever lived must be baptised), sealings (families are sealed together forever - so your kids will always be your kids , your spouse is always your spouse, all way back to Adam making us one big eternal family)
Resurrection - everyone to be resurrected - no more 'isms' at that time i.e. no 'mormonism' Everyone to be rewarded according to what they wanted. If people wanted to live by doing bad things then they will receive a beautiful paradise, if people wanted to be good but didn't want to accept the sacrifice of Jesus they will receive an even better place but again all sealings gone, finally everyone who accepts Jesus both here and in the afterlife gains eternal life (meaning with God and knowing all God has and becoming as God.) No mormons only going to 'heaven' malarky. Side note everyone not accepting Jesus payment for sins (including agony in Gethsemane) have to pay for it themselves - called pains of Hell. One small sub group - those who know Jesus and have no more faith and then turn away from him, deny the Holy Ghost - cast out to 'outer darkness' where they will rule over satan and his angels (by dint of a body - they still get resurrected)
Relationship to all other faiths - good people are in all of them and have a bright reward but they don't have the priesthood therefore LDS have to do the baptism and sealing on their behalf when they die - same way that Jesus had to die for us - lds consider this a service for all mankind - not a make everyone a mormon ploy (no 'ism' after death.)
Hope that's ok. And for those who keep alluding to 'dark secerets' I hope anyone whose read my post history will know that as far as I'm concerned , as long as you have a bit of respect, I'll tell you anything. I have read all our secrets and none of them are 'oh my gosh - its all false' things. -
87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
I quite like them
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Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
by candidlynuts inthe times .
interesting.... but not suprising.. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printfriendly/0,,1-2-1798944-2,00.html.
societies worse off 'when they have god on their side'.
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Qcmbr
Tetra - when was the last time you heard that stuff preached? May I say that at the same time in world history across the world we don't have any examples of enlightened atheists living utopian lifestyles.
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Free will?
by upside/down inwe are not given the same chance that "adam & eve" were given.... we actually should all be given our own "paradise" planet and the same parameters that were given to them.... we are not...we are born with all sorts of inborn "imperfections" and outside influences...beyond our control.
so any "test" is a farce.. interesting that the only "perfect" people (jc don't count as he was pseudo-human...he was in the know)...failed....yet supposedly, many of us "imperfects" are successful...how so?.
"religion" fails to satisfy the truly enquiring mind........again!.
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Qcmbr
Maybe Adam and Eve didn't fail - maybe what they did was incredible, fantastic, brave and resulted in you and me.
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Did Noahs Ark drift about aimlessly in the Great Flood?
by EliJah inno where does it mention that noah traveled around the world in his big boat.
in fact, is says that the ark was floating "high above the earth".
also, what does matthew mean about "just like in the days of noah?
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Qcmbr
I suspect that anybody with a boat would have got in it during such a time.
Narkissos / Leo maybe you could enlighten me on some alternatives to the translation 'flesh' used in the ark story. I get the distinct impression that the two by two onto the ark was people and that the animals(in sevens) were food rather than to perpetuate the species.
The evidence also suggests that there was no global flood:
Freshwater fish.
Very few lifeforms could live under that water pressure or without oxygen.
Light would have penetrated only the top of the flood waters killing most sea life trapped in the saltier water below.
Ice cores - ice would have shown flood.
Lack of global depositional features.
Nowhere for the water to go afterwards - waterworld scenario.
It seems that it was a more localised flood taht seemed to Noah as if it was global.
Alternatively we just have a garbled version of a global flood and we're missing something in the current geological evidence. -
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Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
by candidlynuts inthe times .
interesting.... but not suprising.. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printfriendly/0,,1-2-1798944-2,00.html.
societies worse off 'when they have god on their side'.
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Qcmbr
Of course its just statistics. When you get any 'grouping it tends to polarise its opposite. I think if you take the stats and look at religious people rather than nations you'll TEND (before I get flamed) to find that religious people do fewer drugs, stay married longer, perform fewer murders, have less abortions, have larger families, do fewer crimes, are happier (granted you can define happiness many ways), live longer and are generally better looking (OK I made that up.)
Unless a specific teaching is anti-social ('go bomb people' for example) I fail to see how anyone could think that religious teachings which are socially excellent (love, respect and honour based) could actually create the reverse effect. People don't normally go beat up people after a sermon on turning the other cheek.
If we want a stronger society we have to look after our families. -
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Astounding proof of the existence of God!
by AlmostAtheist inperry marshall has done what no one else could do -- he has proven that god exists!
he points out that dna is a language -- a message -- and messages always originate with a mind!
of course, it's so simple.
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Qcmbr
..'cos we shouldn't be eating chicken at church.
I think DNA is seriously degraded from a state of perfection , I think a lot of errors in the dna are caused by choices made by people (taking certain drugs while pregnant would not be recommended for example) and once the error is present its hard for it to be removed (though DNA has some fantastic self repair systems supporting it.) So unfortunately yes, Adam and Eve do come in here..sorry!
Why are we not perfectly designed? Well to my mind we aren't meant to live forever in this state - it would be a disaster to be unkillable and uninjurable. It would make us spiritually dead forever with no hope of ever returning to God. I think death is as important as birth and that this body is imperfect enough to be forgiving of this environment - maybe a perfect body would have trouble with this world. Naff analogy - a Klashnikov is much better suited to dirt and rough handling than an M16 - the M16 however, is a better gun when its not being abused and dragged through mud. I like a body that is a bit rough around the edges and I really like the idea of a better one in the resurrection. -
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Astounding proof of the existence of God!
by AlmostAtheist inperry marshall has done what no one else could do -- he has proven that god exists!
he points out that dna is a language -- a message -- and messages always originate with a mind!
of course, it's so simple.
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Qcmbr
Nav - your right dna is not evidence of Jehovah, Shiva, ET or any god. Its just got some characteristics of design that suggest intelligence.
When asking for evidence of God a first step is to ask for a definition of God. If 'your' god is unseen and immaterial and mine is rock and roll then we probably won't agree on acceptable evidence.