Actually LT - I hope to see everyone there! OK that was a pat answer but honestly, its a born again phrase to claim that you can't be saved by the 'mormon' Jesus - you won't find(shouldn't! find) Mormons saying you can't be saved by the 'baptist Jesus' or the 'catholic Jesus'. I don't care whether someone truly believes Jesus is three in one, an individual or green cheese - all I care about is that they try their best to follow Him.
Where we are radically different to all christian religions save one (Catholics) is the claim to authority from a literal divine source.
I found it quite enlightening to hear the response of christians on the door when I told them about the literal building of Zion, the actual gathering of Israel, new scripture testifying that Jesus is the Christ, a modern day prophet receiving revelaion, a restoration of the Priesthood - they were more interested in proving that they were right than the possibility that what we were saying was true. To me that was like telling a rich man that there is more money in a wallet in my hand and that person saying I don't believe you so I won't look - at least have a look you wally!. I always thought that christians would be really excited to find out more about Jesus. I was really wrong. As a side note I always listen to any religious people who wish to share their views. I figure they have as much right to be 'right' as I have.
The funny thing is that often when I talked to born agains they said about how I was a child of the devil and that I was going to hell and then in the next breath said all that was needed was to confess Jesus. I'd stand at the door and think 'duh! - I'm not selling windows here.' Like I said at the top - its a born again trait to say you can only be saved by the born again Jesus.
Now the answer you really want LT - the one you are trying to get out of me: I believe everyone must be baptised by someone with actual authority - not self appointed.
Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.
Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.
Posts by Qcmbr
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87Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
nope.
There are four 'general' locations:
Outer darkness: Absolute mingers - the Judas Iscariot types - i.e. I saw / know without doubt Jesus amd reject Him. A tiny group - very few can ever do this.
Telestial Kingdom: Stinkers. The rogues, murderers, bad people - the people who reject Jesus but aren't in OD.
Terrestrial Kingdom: The nice people. Everyone who lived a decent life but still reject Jesus' atonement.*
Celestial Kingdom: Those who obey God's commandments and accept the atonement.
All the three kingdoms are glorious and Jospeh Smith said that if you could see the telestial kingdom you'd feel a desire to end your life here just to get there. This world at its very best approximates the telestial kingdom.
If you don't accept the C kingdom however you have rejected Jesus' sacrifice and have to suffer the pains of hell to pay for your sins - in other words you go through what Jesus did at Gethsemane until your sins are paid.
If you left the LDS faith and critically, rejected Jesus but didn't do much wrong your likeley to qualify for Terrestrial life. Like I keep saying the LDS faith doesn't exist in heaven just as much as the born again religion doesn't either. Heaven is not a church. My goal as a missionary was to get everyone baptised by authority not simply as another LDS. In our prophcies we expect the time when other people of the house of Israel will return, led by their prophets (i.e. non LDS.) We also closely identify with the Jews (though I doubt the feeling is mutual:)
* the reason why I was suggesting that obedience is critical - can you accept Jesus if you don't do what he asked? Would Israel have died if they didn't look at the brazen serpent?
I'm going to bed - this place is way too addictive. -
87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
aww now this isn't funny. I'm off to bed. Blow this for a load of rubbish.
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Haha - and I do this sort of thing for a living. What a goof ball I am.
Cross Image.
Bearded bloke
His bearded mate.
Middle Eastern Gold Plates
Potentially white and coloured people.
Old World text in Oklahoma. Just pretend you can see more than a fuzzy yellow block.
Some very similar concepts and images from American tribe.
Cemented buildings (with spacious views, parking and great neighbours;)
America's stonehenge.
Can't remember why this was useful - something about an egyptian motif and story.
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
aww cr*p OK. Let me repost the pics.
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Hi TD - did you see my earlier post with all the pictures (you need IE for some reason?)
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Maybe, but if you want to reject JS you'd hopefully do it a lot earlier on rather than with some obscure references that don't have any doctrinal point.
If I was ever made a prophet (highly doubtful - my wife won't let me have a beard) there are soooo many things I've said that would be used by critics to point out my fallability (like when I said Liverpool would never win the European cup again and that I was going to be an olympic long jumper and my high school comment - 'the holocaust never happened' (before I get flamed I got my terms mixed up, I meant something totally different - what a goof ball!)) Suffice to say - being a prophet / leader of a church does not stop error/opinion(even Moses made a few prize goof ups while a prophet.) By their fruits ye shall know them.
Just for interest sake you should read the story of JS (I'd start with his version before heading to his critics) - its interesting and you may find some sympathy with his early questions and struggles with empty religion. -
87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
how do I get pictures to show in firefox? Hi Danny, they picked the wrong guy to buzz the day they screwed you.
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87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
interesting effect! not quite what I was hoping for.
knickers. -
87
Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence inwhat would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence
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Qcmbr
Some Cultural Issues in the book of Mormon: Forget the art used to illustrate the BOM , it's just guesswork and certainly not a statement of how it really was.
1/ No Israelite/semitic dna found in American Indians - in fact almost exclusively asiatic dna.
2/ Hill Cumorah (gold plates hidden there) is in New York area whereas the BOM suggests a more central Americas location.
3/ 'White', bearded Indians. No evidence.
4/ BOM talks about a Christian conversion for the BOM peoples at the time of Christ's death (they were some of the 'Other sheep')
5/ BOM mentions horses / steel / concrete all way before they were introduced to the American continent.
6/ There just isn't enough time for the few people mentioned in the BOM to have grown into a nation that could be waging internal wars.
7/ Writing on gold plates using egyptian heiroglyphic style text.
What I'm going to show is some interesting things found in the Americas:
A maze of man-made chambers, walls and ceremonial meeting places, America's Stonehenge is one of the oldest man-made construction in the US. (over 4000 years old). Archaeological excavations have uncovered an amazing range of historic and pre-historic artifacts-from stone tools, pottery and ancient old world scripts.
In "The History of the Cross" we are told that, "In Palenque, in Mexico, are the remains of an ancient Aztec temple. At the back of one of the altars in that temple is a bas- relief cross some ten feet high. It is a superb design, rich in symbolic carving. Above the cross perches the figure of a bird.... The Mayans and Aztecs of Meso-America and the Nazca, Ica, Moche, and Inca civilizations of ancient Peru [all] used crosses."
This ceramic bust of a bearded man with distinctly Old World features was found in Veracruz, Mexico, and has been dated to 300 AD or earlier. Beards were (and still are) almost non-existent among most indiginous Meso-American tribes.
This first century BC city, now an ancient ruin, can be found 30 miles northeast of Mexico City. Teotihuacan, literally translated from the Nahuatl, means "place where men become gods." Teotihuacan had already been deserted for 600 years when the Aztecs found it. Cement and stucco are found in great quantities at this site.
When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, among them was perhaps the most intriguing scroll of all - the Copper Scroll. It was found in 1952 in Cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea. Since then, several other ancient scriptural texts have been found on metal plates or scrolls.
Professor Dorothy Hosler of MIT's Center for Materials Research has found pre-Columbian evidence of copper smelting at El Machon, Guerreo, Mexico. Copper was used to make bronze, and various bronze alloys were often referred to as "steel," even in the KJV English translation of the Bible.
This 2500 year-old Etruscan artifact was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb uncovered during digging for a canal along the Strouma river in south-western Bulgaria. It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse-rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers. The Etruscans were wiped out in the 4th century BC.
A 1998 DNA study conducted by The Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA has discovered a mitochondrial DNA strain in some 3% of Amerindians called "Haplo-group X" which supports a pre-Columbian migration of caucasians to the Americas. Haplo-group X is NOT found in Asians, demonstrating it did not come across the Bering Strait.
Ancient Pre-Columbian
Bearded Incense Burner
with Semitic facial features
found in GuatemalaIn addition to numerous bearded figurines, carvings, and murals, there have been numerous finds of representations of people who are plainly caucasoid (not resembling the typical Mayans or other Meso-Americans) and very Semitic in appearance.
One of the best kept secrets of Mayan archeology is that quite a lot of Mayan art shows dark and light skinned peoples. The Bureau of American Ethnology calls this "wearing the skins of one's enemy," and dismisses it as as religious ceremony .
The Micmac language was discovered by Catholic priests in 1609 when, as they preached to the Indians, they were shocked to see them taking notes in a strange language. The priests copied the characters, which much later were compared to hieroglyphs used by ancient Libyans and Egyptians and found to have many of the same meanings
The Pontotoc Stele
unearthed in Oklahoma by
Gloria Farley and Weldon Stout. The Pontotoc Stele, according to Dr. Barry Fell, a celebrated if not controversial epigraphist, is written in a Phoenecian language called Iberian Punic and contains a “Hymn to the Aton,” by Pharaoh Akhnaton. It reads, “When BaaI-Ra rises in the east, the beasts are content, and (when he hides his face?) they are displeased.” The artifact has been tentatively dated to approximately 100 BC. The Hymn, an ancient Egyptian heresy, supposedly expunged, infiltrated Israelite tradition after a lapse of many centuries, and is reflected in the 104th Psalm.
I have more pictures of things like elephants / horses / wheeled artefacts / ruins that look like baptismal fonts. I have articles on the amazing number of arrowheads found in upstate New York indicating a huge battle there (BOM ends in a huge battle at the Hill Cumorah - in NY state.) Burial mounds dotted all over north America with steel weapons found in them.Why where the indigenous people expecting a white , bearded God to return to them (a fact used by the Spanish and Captain Cook to their advantage?)
Last bit - the dna issue: The BOM describes a population coming from Asia at the time of the tower of Babel - this civilisation was millions strong only a few years before the Israelite migrants arrived. The few Israelite settlers clearly intermingled with the native population and all but wiped out any DNA trace very rapidly.
If anyone is interested I have some other internal things in the BOM that are internally consistent with an ancient culture. Either Joseph Smith was a friggin' genius / lucky in the extreme/ he copied it from someone who was a genius/lucky or it was what he claimed it was.
After all this I don't believe due to any of above - they are merely random ideas and fragments of evidence. I believe because I read the book and asked if it was true. Please feel free to refute any of the above. I don't defend any of them as real evidence, just curios.