Does anyone have the case details for this - JWs at my door claimed that the case found in favour of Gough family and Shrewsbury hospital lost after admitting' no-one knew how to operate the life saving equipment'! Would like to verify court findings and outcome. Thanks.
Posts by Qcmbr
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85Shropshire Star news editor examines issues behind death of JW Emma Gough
by AndersonsInfo inshropshire starapril 9, 2008. why would loving faith allow death?.
features news editor neil thomas examines the issues behind the tragic death of new mum emma gough.. words written by heaven knows who and attributed to moses have brought about the apparently needless death of a young shropshire mother, and blighted many other lives, more than 3,000 years later.. far-fetched, possibly.
yet, how else are we to interpret the death of emma gough?.
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Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
Numbers - magic rituals and curses
13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousycome over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord . 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord , he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse [d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.
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Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
Divination via the Urim and Thummim.
In ancient Israelite religion and culture, Urim and Thummim ( Hebrew : ?????? ??????? , Standard ha?Urim v?haTummim Tiberian ha?Ûrîm w?hatTummîm ) is a phrase from the Hebrew Scriptures or Torah associated with the hoshen ( High Priest's breastplate), divination in general, and cleromancy in particular. Most scholars suspect that the phrase refers to specific objects involved in the divination. [1]
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398
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
Recovery - despite multiple people responding to you seem to only want to hear the words:
'The Watchtower is right.'
You've had plenty of information as to why most people responding consider that the terms magic and miracles can be used interchangeably. Through it all you seem content to ignore the effort people are making with you and to actually simply encourage those who have got sick of your condescension and are simply giving you back what you like to dish out.
Whether you are aware or not you are acting as a troll.
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398
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
I think you could make a case that magic , in pre-industraialised cultures, was a human response to the perceived divine miracles. So a person , powerless in the face of a sea god raising storms could chant a magic mantra and clasp a magic amulet as a way to appease or mitigate the storm. As such you could see that much of the Israelite rituals was magical (sacrificial animals, sprinkling of blood, cutting off penile tissue, ark of the Covenant, staff of Aaron, Urim and Thummim etc.) ; human responses in the face of an implacable god working his will regardless of human will.
One wonders, given the awe that a modern day magician engenders, how powerful someone who could do basic illusionist magic would become. Jesus never seems to rise above the level of illusionist and con artists in the New Testament. This is not to denigrate any real charachter or their positive teachings but to show that the records that were made focused upon the sort of things that would impress a person from cultures back then. If I had record the life of a 'miracle' worker today I'd probably focus less on turning water to wine and more on philosophical teachings, I'd want to be a lot more analytical as well about such miracles as the loaves and the fishes, what happened, how did I know it wasn't sleight of hand and a bunch of well paid assistants.
I think - going back to the definition of magic - you could aslo suggest that a division between magic and miracle was that magic was unauthorised while miracles where authorised but that potentially both were supposed to be powered by the realm of <insert term such as 'spirits'>. The Priests of Egypt were not of the Priesthood line (supposedly descended from Ham the cursed son of Noah who discovered the secrets of Noah in an unathorised way) whereas Moses was given direct authority by God.
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Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician
The charge that Jesus was a magician did not originate with Morton Smith. It was previously voiced by the philosopher and critic Celsus (The True Word c. 200 CE) as we know from the rebuttal authored by the Christian apologist/scholar Origen: “It was by magic that he was able to do the miracles” (Contra Celsum 1.6). Clearly, for Celsus to have repeated the story, it must have had long currency before he came to write his book. Hans Dieter Betz (1994) observes that "from early on even Jesus of Nazareth was implicated in that he was said to be mad or a magician possessed by Satan" and R. Joseph Hoffmann writes (1987) that "that the early Christian mission was advanced by the use of magic is well attested."
Discovery News reported in 2008 the discovery by French marine archaeologist Franck Goddioof a bowl dating "to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D." which refers to Jesus as a magician: "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which, the article tells us, "has been interpreted to mean either, 'by Christ the magician' or, 'the magician by Christ.'" Assuming this references Jesus, this is the earliest known reference to Jesus as a magician. [citation needed] Depiction of Jesus describes how Jesus was artistically portrayed in early Christian art.
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Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
What's more worrying is why the supposed creator of a vast cosmos thought that turning a stick into a snake was all that impressive. The OT god is a cheap magician who kills the people who don't immediately get the message. I'm presuming God wanted to punish Egypt so he deliberately hardened Phaoroh's heart while showing a very obtuse set of parlour tricks that could be replicated by court magicians - ergo not very impressive stuff. He repeats this pattern when Jesus' first miracle is to make booze rather than something vaguely useful like cure the world of malaria. The bible god is portrayed as a poor showman ( walking on water, spit magic, healing hankies, columns of fire etc.) with an overriding love of blood and death rather than a wise, divine being converting humanity to his will by acts of miraculous benevolence.
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398
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
We can go even further. Gods people, according to the bible, record their dealings with god, their instructions on how to live, their revelations from god not simply for their benefit but as a testament to the world. If the JWs aren't producing any scriptures, no written records of their dealings with Jehovah, then how can they be said to be testifying of him. If the Israelities of biblical times were happy to simply preach we would have no OT, no knowledge of Jehovah, if the early xian authors didn't record their dealings with God via Jesus but simply preached we would have no NT and by definition we would have no JWs since you are a product of the book. It looks like JWs are trying to make a virtue of having nothing to write about, the lack of divine interaction means the JWs can produce no scripture, they can make no lasting impact, their testimony is simply the spoken word alone, a spoken word that has no defined stance. JWs have no publications of their own that are inspired of God.
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398
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
Recovery - I see you ignored my post. Fine.
If you wish to say that miracles are the manifestations of your version of Jehovah then you also have to explain why you don't believe that any miracles are occurring today because that is tantamount to saying that your Jehovah is not manifesting his power via the JWs. In short you are unable to receive revelation, inspiration, new light, gifts of the spirit, answers to prayers, guidance from prayers. It's just you, a canon of scriptures copied, codified and ratified by bishops from other faiths ( they certainly weren't JWs) containing numerous interpolations of men and no divine way to verify what is authentic and what is false. Your case fails.
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398
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery ini have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.
as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.
"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.
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Qcmbr
Recovery, since I have no belief in Jehovah nor any other bronze age gods the term miracle and magic, as applied in myths is one and the same, they are both supposed suspensions of the laws of physics and the occurrence of an event emanating purely from willpower. I don't think the term 'miracle' is a preserve of Xians alone so why do you claim that it is? I find your wordplay a fairly common JW style. Are you trained to 'strain at a gnat' to make a point when really the important stuff is about love and actions ( at least that was my overall reading of the NT) , so for example if you wished to discuss how JWs do lots of charitable public service ( say soup kitchens, saving lives by giving blood, litter picks, battered women's refuges, hospitals etc.) then I'd be more impressed than what you've said so far. To summarise.
JWs don't have any miracles going on.
JWs believe magic is ongoing ( odd - I've not seen any fire from heaven, sticks turning to snakes but maybe it's just only in secret places )
JWs are desperate to be right and will push the primacy of JW thought even if they themselves get new light and reverse a teaching ( so showing that they were zealously preaching falsehood ). Since JWs cannot be trusted to remain steadfast on any doctrine ( they may receive new light at any time ) then it seems rather silly to make a tenuous semantic stand on the definition of a miracle, a definition you JWs don't own.
You are not providing a good witness nor are you supposed to associate with apostates so you are simply dishonouring your own faith anyway. I will discuss your example with JWs next time they are at my door.