Posts by Qcmbr

36

Are Mormons "racist" towards black people?

by booker-t in

i really do not know much about the mormon religion so i don't want to say things that are not true.

but mormons just give me a feeling of that they are "phoney" i just feel that in my bones.

i don't want to stereotype people but i live in the same apartment building with 5 young mormon missionaries.

Qcmbr

Mormon teaching is racist - all xian teaching is racist - Mormon anti-coloured teaching is a product of xian 19 century racism. Mormon weakness was simply not changing the rules as quickly as other more racially progressive religions. All xian teaching continues to be racist as long as it cites the bible and the concept of God's people seperate from those not of the body of Christ. All religions aim to cause as many divisions and points of difference as possible.

The entire OT privileges one 'race' (Israel) above all others, the NT carries on the debate ( Jews v Gentiles) and fudges an answer allowing gentiles to be adopted into the house of Israel. The bible talks of the curse of Cain which many early christian thinkers associated with a darkening of the skin. This awful interpretation was part of the justification used by xian slave owners. Many protestant churches refused to ordain coloured people until the 60s and in places in Southern US some Catholic churches also refused to ordain colured men.

While the fight in most western religions has been won regarding race (and the Mormons have disavowed their teachings as well going so far as to alter their scriptures) the discrimination against women and gender preference is still ongoing. If you wish to condemn Mormons and certain sects look to their view on gender roles and sexual behaviour - I would suggest.

85

Shropshire Star news editor examines issues behind death of JW Emma Gough

by AndersonsInfo in

shropshire starapril 9, 2008. why would loving faith allow death?.

features news editor neil thomas examines the issues behind the tragic death of new mum emma gough.. words written by heaven knows who and attributed to moses have brought about the apparently needless death of a young shropshire mother, and blighted many other lives, more than 3,000 years later.. far-fetched, possibly.

yet, how else are we to interpret the death of emma gough?.

Qcmbr

Thanks - I'm seeing if I can find the court outcome as well - I want to find out if they did find against the hospital. This is very useful though because I can at least correct her lazy assertion that no one in the hospital knew how to run the life saving equipment (potentially noone knew how to run the blood recycling kit).

85

Shropshire Star news editor examines issues behind death of JW Emma Gough

by AndersonsInfo in

shropshire starapril 9, 2008. why would loving faith allow death?.

features news editor neil thomas examines the issues behind the tragic death of new mum emma gough.. words written by heaven knows who and attributed to moses have brought about the apparently needless death of a young shropshire mother, and blighted many other lives, more than 3,000 years later.. far-fetched, possibly.

yet, how else are we to interpret the death of emma gough?.

Qcmbr

Does anyone have the case details for this - JWs at my door claimed that the case found in favour of Gough family and Shrewsbury hospital lost after admitting' no-one knew how to operate the life saving equipment'! Would like to verify court findings and outcome. Thanks.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

Numbers - magic rituals and curses

13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousycome over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord . 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord , he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse [d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

Divination via the Urim and Thummim.

In ancient Israelite religion and culture, Urim and Thummim ( Hebrew : ?????? ??????? ‎, Standard ha?Urim v?haTummim Tiberian ha?Ûrîm w?hatTummîm ) is a phrase from the Hebrew Scriptures or Torah associated with the hoshen ( High Priest's breastplate), divination in general, and cleromancy in particular. Most scholars suspect that the phrase refers to specific objects involved in the divination. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

Recovery - despite multiple people responding to you seem to only want to hear the words:

'The Watchtower is right.'

You've had plenty of information as to why most people responding consider that the terms magic and miracles can be used interchangeably. Through it all you seem content to ignore the effort people are making with you and to actually simply encourage those who have got sick of your condescension and are simply giving you back what you like to dish out.

Whether you are aware or not you are acting as a troll.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

I think you could make a case that magic , in pre-industraialised cultures, was a human response to the perceived divine miracles. So a person , powerless in the face of a sea god raising storms could chant a magic mantra and clasp a magic amulet as a way to appease or mitigate the storm. As such you could see that much of the Israelite rituals was magical (sacrificial animals, sprinkling of blood, cutting off penile tissue, ark of the Covenant, staff of Aaron, Urim and Thummim etc.) ; human responses in the face of an implacable god working his will regardless of human will.

One wonders, given the awe that a modern day magician engenders, how powerful someone who could do basic illusionist magic would become. Jesus never seems to rise above the level of illusionist and con artists in the New Testament. This is not to denigrate any real charachter or their positive teachings but to show that the records that were made focused upon the sort of things that would impress a person from cultures back then. If I had record the life of a 'miracle' worker today I'd probably focus less on turning water to wine and more on philosophical teachings, I'd want to be a lot more analytical as well about such miracles as the loaves and the fishes, what happened, how did I know it wasn't sleight of hand and a bunch of well paid assistants.

I think - going back to the definition of magic - you could aslo suggest that a division between magic and miracle was that magic was unauthorised while miracles where authorised but that potentially both were supposed to be powered by the realm of <insert term such as 'spirits'>. The Priests of Egypt were not of the Priesthood line (supposedly descended from Ham the cursed son of Noah who discovered the secrets of Noah in an unathorised way) whereas Moses was given direct authority by God.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician

The charge that Jesus was a magician did not originate with Morton Smith. It was previously voiced by the philosopher and critic Celsus (The True Word c. 200 CE) as we know from the rebuttal authored by the Christian apologist/scholar Origen: “It was by magic that he was able to do the miracles” (Contra Celsum 1.6). Clearly, for Celsus to have repeated the story, it must have had long currency before he came to write his book. Hans Dieter Betz (1994) observes that "from early on even Jesus of Nazareth was implicated in that he was said to be mad or a magician possessed by Satan" and R. Joseph Hoffmann writes (1987) that "that the early Christian mission was advanced by the use of magic is well attested."

Discovery News reported in 2008 the discovery by French marine archaeologist Franck Goddioof a bowl dating "to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D." which refers to Jesus as a magician: "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which, the article tells us, "has been interpreted to mean either, 'by Christ the magician' or, 'the magician by Christ.'" Assuming this references Jesus, this is the earliest known reference to Jesus as a magician. [citation needed] Depiction of Jesus describes how Jesus was artistically portrayed in early Christian art.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

What's more worrying is why the supposed creator of a vast cosmos thought that turning a stick into a snake was all that impressive. The OT god is a cheap magician who kills the people who don't immediately get the message. I'm presuming God wanted to punish Egypt so he deliberately hardened Phaoroh's heart while showing a very obtuse set of parlour tricks that could be replicated by court magicians - ergo not very impressive stuff. He repeats this pattern when Jesus' first miracle is to make booze rather than something vaguely useful like cure the world of malaria. The bible god is portrayed as a poor showman ( walking on water, spit magic, healing hankies, columns of fire etc.) with an overriding love of blood and death rather than a wise, divine being converting humanity to his will by acts of miraculous benevolence.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Qcmbr

We can go even further. Gods people, according to the bible, record their dealings with god, their instructions on how to live, their revelations from god not simply for their benefit but as a testament to the world. If the JWs aren't producing any scriptures, no written records of their dealings with Jehovah, then how can they be said to be testifying of him. If the Israelities of biblical times were happy to simply preach we would have no OT, no knowledge of Jehovah, if the early xian authors didn't record their dealings with God via Jesus but simply preached we would have no NT and by definition we would have no JWs since you are a product of the book. It looks like JWs are trying to make a virtue of having nothing to write about, the lack of divine interaction means the JWs can produce no scripture, they can make no lasting impact, their testimony is simply the spoken word alone, a spoken word that has no defined stance. JWs have no publications of their own that are inspired of God.