Posts by Qcmbr

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

Qcmbr

Stalin is a great example of what happens when faith obscures rationalism. Stalin was an atheist but primarily he was filled with faith in (his nasty version of) marxism such that even when it was demonstrably shown to be harmful to the people it was persisted with and preached. A true rational thinker , in a position of leadership and power, will be willing to alter their underlying assumptions and premises based upon evidence and feedback.

Intellectual honesty and rationalism is to perpetually doubt everything. Faith is to perpetually assume that the object of your faith is right no matter what. Faith can never equal intellectual honesty as it is unwilling to examine itself in a questioning or doubting state. Faith can never doubt itself lest it cease to be. Worldviews built on faith are difficult to dislodge no matter how wrong they are hence we have a plethora of competing religious ideas which are mutually incompatile but rely on exactly the same subjective evidences.

Faith is the problem imo. Atheism is not a recipe for removing faith ( as Stalin showed) but it is a darn good start for getting rid of one idol that relies on faith.

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

Qcmbr

apols phone.

I fear terribly the old granny who knits blankets for orphans but harbours belief in faith based concepts for if she ever gains authority she may at any stage start to claim divine mandate and communication and apply all kinds of madness. History is not on tbe side of the faithful, tbey have been shown as the most harmful to human thinking, knowledge and well being. I welcome this book abd the thinking that is driving it. we need to challenge faith with reason and rationality everywhere. nowhere should be too sacred or command too much respect to be challenged. We may not reach the convinced but we sure as hell can give their chdren the critical thinking skills to notice the difference between cherished fantasy worlds and reality.

We may end up with fewer pyramids but we will gain more space rockets.

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

Qcmbr

Great tip re book Cofty, will order when available on amazon. I am surrounded by sincere believers who apply their false ideas on a daily basis to the material world to tbeir and my detriment in both the short term and long term. Faith is not rational, it cannot be, its cpnclusions are absurd but those who have faith as their primary hueristic for determining reality are the most blind to their condition. The most immune to reason are the self made mystic as they can make up descriptions of reality to suit any situation and can intellectually dance away from failed memes; close behind them are the dogmaric religionists who have allowed a creed to replace their authebtic self, JWs, Mormons, Muslims etc. fall into this area and they believe partially because all around them believe and they seek positive reinforcement from their community. Should faith and personal belief be challenged or should it be respected , nay privileged? The rational mind ( NOT ATHEIST ) can easily explain why ideas, any ideas, should be challenged constantly and both parties , if they have intellectual honesty, will accept the new consequences of that challenge.Ideas closest to material truth will yield great predictive and .explanatory power while those that dont have little use beyond novelty and entertainment. Faith based knowledge leads to a mindset of reactive uncertainty, it cannot survive rigorous examination and so tries every manipulative and devious device it can to avoid the challenge. Tactics employed by faith range from constant redefinition of word meaning, appeals to respect, attempts to change the dialogue to questions of personal rights, outrage that someone could publically call them out ( all tactics of the unempowered) through to threats, name calling, social censure and isolation, improsnment , torture, murder and war ( tactics of empowered faith beliefs).Our board faithful are blind to their own anti social tendencies because they are not in power. A simple belief in 'love','light', 'truth', is only a few steps away from censoring the media, vigilante purity patrols, imprisoning vocal critics, enforced conversion and stonings

304

Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 in

jw
friends

a thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.

or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.

after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?

Qcmbr

Until, it becomes illegal to teach faith as fact to children I suspect religions that promote irresponsible , large families ( guilty as charged) will continually outgrow non-religious families. Modern atheism needs to show not only that it is a more rational worldview but ultimately a more biologically successful one. Sam Harris is making great inroads into the moral debate on the side of rational, scientific thinking. We need more people to explain why living life based on a lie, no matter how fluffy and spiritual, is socially sub optimal.

304

Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 in

jw
friends

a thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.

or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.

after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?

Qcmbr

I despair at the mental waste consumed by religion, my own former cerebral buffoonery hurts most keenly. I cast about trying to understand how we, I ,can be functionally capable, generally rational beings and yet fall so utterly under the sway of irrational, faith engorged fantasy worlds. What is this capacity we have to be so convinced by utter tosh that we will create entire societies devoted to a myth and more disturbing, create perceptually convoncong internal monologues with invisible friends. What an amazing world this will be when we can stop wasting time on arguing over which magic is bestest. In the meantime the longer the debate continues the more faith can be exposed as a less effective way to gain knowledge. Apols for terse structure and fat fingers . crappy phone.

304

Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 in

jw
friends

a thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.

or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.

after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?

Qcmbr

This kind of OP is why I and many others are willing to stand up to ignorance and faith based manipulation.This kind of divisive stupidity is what happens when material evidence is missing. The moment some godlike being makes material contact the atheist and rational religionist will alike , accept the new information. Faith is the casualty when material evidence appears. Faith leads to all sorts of flightsof fancy when evidence is missing. As an atheist I happily make the probablistic assertion that of themillions of demonstrably evidence free gods yours will also be simply supported by your imaginative faith. Every christian fails the test every time every day. Pretty conclusive. In the meantime ye faithful keep on with the good fight, Zeus will surely bless your endeavours.

210

Question regarding Faith...(adamah)

by tec in

jw
friends

peace!.

you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.

may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?

Qcmbr

tec - your slipperiness is amazing - you manage to post thousands of words and yet say nothing of any use. When will you realise that telling people to listen to your version of Christ is to ask them to do something impossible. People cannot listen to something in your mind. If everyone could hear exactly what you can hear then most people posting on this forum (and indeed the world) with a christian background would be able to verify what you are saying. It is sheer hubris and very rude to demean the efforts of many , who now or in the past spent vast amounts of mental energy and time trying to hear Christ and heard nothing by suggesting that is all that is needed. One day I hope you will try and understand why your words are empty to those who have already experimented with hearing /listening/obeying and following Christ in a sincere and faithful way. One day you should put aside evangelical tec and the thought killing mantras that are too often used and try being a world citizen, listen to people and see why pat answers aren't enough for anyone but children, try and understand why people struggle to make sense of anything you say - hint it isn't always the hearers fault.

32

Need Advice On Shunning My Dying Dad, Please Advise!

by AuntConnie in

dear jwn,.

when i was out in field service yesterday i was approached by some sisters asking me how my dying dad was doing.

i said "i try not to visit him, you will have to ask him yourself.

Qcmbr

Stop shunning and take back ownership of your life. The WT will change their policy on shunning sooner or later. There aren't many doctrinal points they haven't fiddled with in their short history. That's what men do when they make stuff up. You get one shot at spending your life with those around you. Don't let a belief f**k that up.

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Qcmbr

Oh Cold, your belief in these miracle stories , sans evidence, is the cost of faith.

I helped 'cast' a demon out of someone along with other missionaries and this evil presence exited via one of the missionaries such that he collapsed. There were four missionaries to witness it and it was quite an impressive experience. Except it wasn't. At the time, in our mythical world, we took someone suffering mental issues, attributed it to an unseen world and we all role played as taught to. Yes it was emotionally charged, yes it was strange and yes we absolutely imagined something was happening that wasn't. The 'possesed' guy was witterring about 'don't cast me into wet places I must remain dry' and it was all simply a mental illness. Crucially he needed medical assistance which he did not get from us. The missionary who was 'overcome by the exiting spirit' was a theatrical guy who imagined the whole thing. The possessed guy played up this whole fantasy with the help of some occult literature and the bible. I was there, I took part, I testified of what I saw but in reality it boiled down to a very silly bit of theatre brought on by religious brainwashing. No demon was cast out, one sick guy didn't get medical care he needed, 1 missionary pretended to pass out and 3 gullible teenage, missionaries joined in.

Returning to your story of the possessed woman lifting off the bed I have to call BS as that doesn't even fit into LDS folklore where Joseph taught that evil spirits cannot perform physical interactions. Mental illness as exhibited by your stories ( and mine) is fertile ground for supposed miracle healing as there is no real evidence except the person sufferring the illness. As mentioned earlier lets see the real, evidence based (medical standard not breathless eyewitness) miracles. Where are the regrown limbs, bodies brought forth from a state of decay to life, deformed bodies made whole etc. they simply do not exist. Are you seriously believing that healing miracles are selectively applied by god? Is god consulting with his rapidly expanding government of dead apostles and deciding that healing x can take place because it still requires faith , yay for mad milly, but healing y would be too spectacular so no matter how much faith little billy has he will need to tough out his elephantism? At some point a strong skeptical attitude will serve you well my friend!

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Qcmbr

Cold - I'm still reading it :p

The bible contains boast after boast of miracles as signs of not only god's power but his greater power than other regional gods. This should - but doesn't for most believers - ring alarm bells as to the literalness of the written text. In order for old testament Jehovah to be real then he has to fit into a magical world where other magic things can occur ( turning Moses' staff into a snake to eat the other snakes also created by another god is an example.) The 'unchanging' OT god does miracles all day in antiquity from really simple parlour tricks ( iron axe head floating) through to breathtaking stopping the earth in its tracks so the sun remains overhead. The NT continues this magic show with further illusionist style magic, Jesus' birth has new star, Jesus walks on water, chucks newly demonised pigs off cliff, uses spit magic to heal the blind, raises the dead even at a distance, feeds hungry people with magic loaf and fish replicator and so on. To top it all off the supposed inspired writers of the time remind us to look for the signs of the times, to look for people performing miraculous things that 'testify' of Christ and to seek out the magical / miraculous gifts of the spirit.

I say this regularly to still believing Mormons " if real healings existed in the church they would make international news".

It is the bible itself that gives an expectation of miracles ( and the vast majority of ones described in the bible were not associated with the faith of the observers) and all flavours of xian since claim loudest and longest for the veracity and certainty of amazing miracles they neither have proof for nor fits science while simultaneously admitting that inside their bubble of reality everything suddenly becomes science based and miracles are all reliant on absolute faith hence why they themselves never see a real one.

Somehow the human brain can become so blind to reality that it prefers the lie of possible magic to the wonder of actual useful truth. The fairly pathetic healing miracles envisioned by ancient societies and attributed to various chosen ones such as Jesus are bettered every day in every hospital by mankind and the application of science. If miracles were true it is a silly argument to say we wouldn't believe them. The real silliness is to turn your back on reality and live in a pretend world where magic sometimes works but only for other people in an arbitrary way but that requires vast amounts of mental faith just in case it's your turn to get some magic pixie dust - and then to maintain that mindset when it never is your day.