The flaw I find in your arguments jgnat is the isolation of acts and their evaluation alone as good or bad. Using this process we can describe Nazism as having many good features. Poison , as I understand it, isn't simply about ruining one act , it is ruining the totality, the whole thing. Many aspects of the JWs clearly appeal to people but their overall impact is detrimental and sub optimal (had all that effort been directed at more authentic activities more would be achieved .) It is not simply enough to do a good act if the overall cost of that good act is negative.
Posts by Qcmbr
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169Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Sorry jgnat - I breeze past a lot - time is short :( I actually haven't firmly defined a sensible definition of what 'good' is, having read Sam Harris' Moral Landscape I was introduced to the novel idea that we may be able to scientifically ascertain the value of each situation. The current debate has a long way to run before our great thinkers have bottomed out at least this approach to defining good. As such it isn't (in my mind) the act of giving the water itself that would be poisoned but the reality of why that exchange took place. If the giving of water is motivated by fear of hell surely that poisons the intention rather than if it was motivated soley by a natural impulse to share and aid. Religion poisons (in my mind) not simply by what it does but by why it does it.
When a religion gives with one hand it expects to receive with the other (have a bible study for free - come join our organisation , body, mind and purse forever). Returning to Mother Theresa as a really good example - a good behaviour (care for needy) was poisoned by a religious devotion to anti-social policies (she was anti contraception, anti modern medicine, alledgedly used less than 10% of donations on charity work etc.) and arguably she perpetuated poverty rather than alleviated it because her attitude was poisoned by her faith.
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Laika - had a good read of those sources and while they are not particularly scholarly I will grant that I have a better understanding of what you meant by charity. I will happily accept that Christianity was a major factor in driving the spread of alms and caring for the poor and sick whereever it was dominant.
The effect of christianity in Britain is somewhat muted during the Roman occupation but gets up to a full head of steam with the Anglo Saxons. Christianity was also very local in its flavour having merged itself with the local pagan religions and having set itself up in places such as Iona.
I was very interested in the concept that medical care - in the form of hospitals - was largely a christian invention (some useful info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hospitals) but of course there is a deeper story - the poison. How were these charitable acts paid for? How were hospitals, almshouses and infirmaries financed?
"In Europe the medieval concept of medical care by monasteries and religious orders was rejected by the Reformation, and most hospitals in Protestant areas were closed down. Theology was the problem. The Protestant reformers rejected the Catholic belief that rich men could gain God's grace through good works—and escape purgatory—by providing cash endowments to charitable institutions, and that the patients themselves could gain grace through their suffering"
Charity was being driven by a fear of hell. Indeed one thing that struck me is how ineffective these hospitals were (I am struck by a similar example with Mother Theresa) and beyond offering some shelter, food and a bed they weren't very effective. Indeed the reason why so many needed charity was because the invaiding Roman culture had fought hard against the indigenous Celtic concept of the individual with communal land rights and had replaced them with land ownership, servitude , taxation and other forms of wealth seperation. Religion was very much a tool of Roman occupation post 300AD.
So in short - yes charity was a defining charateristic of christianity but I would argue so was organisation, written dogma and guilt (all contributors to the spectacular spread of christianity.) Another thing to realise is how much the peasants were co-erced into accepting christianity (once a King or local noble converted the locals were normally baptised as well - people were property.)
So some good , fairly inneffective, stuff from christianity some poison in the form of guilt, sanctification through suffering, taxation and the general lack of genuine knowledge about medical matters (as one would expect from a set of religious books written by uneducated people rather than a super being.)
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
jgnat - I agree with the widening concept of what our 'tribe' is. I like Pinker's work though I haven't the book you list.
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Laika - evidence? I happen to be studying Roman Britain and the History of the British Isles prior to this at the moment and I disagree that charity was hard to find prior to Empire but I am willing to look at your sources. In particular it is too broad a brush to talk about christianity as a composite whole at this time as it was very different depending on which part of the empire you were in.
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Laika - it is simply that every record of all society, religious or not has some version of it indicating that religion appropriated it rather than created it unless you subscribe to the idea that religion created society and not the other way around. At the very best you could argue that the very earliest religion may have written it down and every other religion copied it.
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
-
-
-
169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Yes Laika it means that. Even the golden rule is ruined when approriated by religion.
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Qcmbr
I love it if only to sit and talk with my family afterwards about the plot holes. With honourable exceptions (for example The Empty Child and Blink) it has lost the scare factor that made it so memorable. If I had my way the sonic screwdriver would be broken (its become a get out of plot impasse tool of convenience) and I'd make the companions less 'special', the companions always had to be potentially you or I to add to the magic. Special effects are excellent but the storylines are too grandiose and lack depth. imo.
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169
Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?
by jgnat ini've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.
i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.
our universe made itself.
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Qcmbr
Lisa - don't forget a sizeable chunk of the world's religions are atheist so to claim that it is just black and white thinking is to claim atheism is more than it is ( a lack of belief in any god ). Someone like myself posts more from an anti-theist and humanist viewpoint than from an atheist one( since that is summed up in a single sentence.) I would never ban religion since that is a road of totalitarianism and is immoral but I wouldremove all religious privilege and rigorously examine the claims of religionists. I would tighten up laws to protect individuals and I would encourage doctrinal change via fiscal penalties ( worked with early Mormons to get rid of the hell of enforced polygamy) - a good example would be to prosecute the WT society for every death caused by refusing blood and a fee for every person taking blood products for religious reasons, in addition those who turn up at the hospital to ensure blood doesn't get taken would be individually prosecuted for manslaughter in the event of a death.
When people get harmed by a policy it is society's duty to modify that policy.