Qcmbr

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Posts by Qcmbr

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  288

  Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

  by BU2B in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

  i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

  it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

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  Qcmbr

  Brilliant Tec - you start a thread describing what atheists say about theists but only actually make it about you. Genius.
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  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

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  Qcmbr

  Honestly - death scared the sh&t out of me as a believer , I used to wake up at night in a cold sweat suffering panic attacks. For whatever reason ( I suspect not talking about death and judgement on a weekly basis has something to do with it) I hardly ever think about death any more. Either way I will go through perfectly normal fear as my end approaches. I do miss the companionship and friendship my church gave me though.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  If we see good in a utilitarian way we could argue that filtering good through an organisation such as a religion reduces the overall utility which must be balanced against the question of whether the good would occur without the organisation (for example giving $10 to a charity that only uses $5 on the actual needy - loss of utility - but has made a connection to help those needy that may not have occurred otherwise.)

  If we seek to separate the act from the institution have we not then agreed that the institution is unecessary and therefore a parasitical form?If however, we argue that the organisation is necessary for the act then we cannot identify a good act without invoking the cause. Under one definition death camp hypothermia experiment data is good and we can ignory the bad way it was gathered , on the other we are forced to confront the idea that the good is poisoned by the cause. I would argue that the cause , religion in this thread , no matter whether its local result is beneficial to some, is a negative drag on mankind overall. To argue otherwise is, to me, to always push the fat man in front of the train to stop it so saving the workers further down the line.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  The flaw I find in your arguments jgnat is the isolation of acts and their evaluation alone as good or bad. Using this process we can describe Nazism as having many good features. Poison , as I understand it, isn't simply about ruining one act , it is ruining the totality, the whole thing. Many aspects of the JWs clearly appeal to people but their overall impact is detrimental and sub optimal (had all that effort been directed at more authentic activities more would be achieved .) It is not simply enough to do a good act if the overall cost of that good act is negative.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  Sorry jgnat - I breeze past a lot - time is short :( I actually haven't firmly defined a sensible definition of what 'good' is, having read Sam Harris' Moral Landscape I was introduced to the novel idea that we may be able to scientifically ascertain the value of each situation. The current debate has a long way to run before our great thinkers have bottomed out at least this approach to defining good. As such it isn't (in my mind) the act of giving the water itself that would be poisoned but the reality of why that exchange took place. If the giving of water is motivated by fear of hell surely that poisons the intention rather than if it was motivated soley by a natural impulse to share and aid. Religion poisons (in my mind) not simply by what it does but by why it does it.

  When a religion gives with one hand it expects to receive with the other (have a bible study for free - come join our organisation , body, mind and purse forever). Returning to Mother Theresa as a really good example - a good behaviour (care for needy) was poisoned by a religious devotion to anti-social policies (she was anti contraception, anti modern medicine, alledgedly used less than 10% of donations on charity work etc.) and arguably she perpetuated poverty rather than alleviated it because her attitude was poisoned by her faith.

  "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  Laika - had a good read of those sources and while they are not particularly scholarly I will grant that I have a better understanding of what you meant by charity. I will happily accept that Christianity was a major factor in driving the spread of alms and caring for the poor and sick whereever it was dominant.

  The effect of christianity in Britain is somewhat muted during the Roman occupation but gets up to a full head of steam with the Anglo Saxons. Christianity was also very local in its flavour having merged itself with the local pagan religions and having set itself up in places such as Iona.

  I was very interested in the concept that medical care - in the form of hospitals - was largely a christian invention (some useful info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hospitals) but of course there is a deeper story - the poison. How were these charitable acts paid for? How were hospitals, almshouses and infirmaries financed?

  "In Europe the medieval concept of medical care by monasteries and religious orders was rejected by the Reformation, and most hospitals in Protestant areas were closed down. Theology was the problem. The Protestant reformers rejected the Catholic belief that rich men could gain God's grace through good works—and escape purgatory—by providing cash endowments to charitable institutions, and that the patients themselves could gain grace through their suffering"

  Charity was being driven by a fear of hell. Indeed one thing that struck me is how ineffective these hospitals were (I am struck by a similar example with Mother Theresa) and beyond offering some shelter, food and a bed they weren't very effective. Indeed the reason why so many needed charity was because the invaiding Roman culture had fought hard against the indigenous Celtic concept of the individual with communal land rights and had replaced them with land ownership, servitude , taxation and other forms of wealth seperation. Religion was very much a tool of Roman occupation post 300AD.

  So in short - yes charity was a defining charateristic of christianity but I would argue so was organisation, written dogma and guilt (all contributors to the spectacular spread of christianity.) Another thing to realise is how much the peasants were co-erced into accepting christianity (once a King or local noble converted the locals were normally baptised as well - people were property.)

  So some good , fairly inneffective, stuff from christianity some poison in the form of guilt, sanctification through suffering, taxation and the general lack of genuine knowledge about medical matters (as one would expect from a set of religious books written by uneducated people rather than a super being.)
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  jgnat - I agree with the widening concept of what our 'tribe' is. I like Pinker's work though I haven't the book you list.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  Laika - evidence? I happen to be studying Roman Britain and the History of the British Isles prior to this at the moment and I disagree that charity was hard to find prior to Empire but I am willing to look at your sources. In particular it is too broad a brush to talk about christianity as a composite whole at this time as it was very different depending on which part of the empire you were in.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  Laika - it is simply that every record of all society, religious or not has some version of it indicating that religion appropriated it rather than created it unless you subscribe to the idea that religion created society and not the other way around. At the very best you could argue that the very earliest religion may have written it down and every other religion copied it.
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  169

  Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

  i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

  our universe made itself.

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  Qcmbr

  Hardly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule