Wow. Keep up the fight Cofty, if only for those of us who appreciate information, clarity and logic. Where on earth are the religious thinkers who can put up some sort of cogent argument? The gods are in full scale retreat.
Posts by Qcmbr
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375This thread is for proof that God exists
by juandefiero inhowever, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?
if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.
(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.
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This thread is for proof that God exists
by juandefiero inhowever, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?
if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.
(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.
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Qcmbr
could I therefore assume that if we all define God as all persuasive and existing wisdom, that God is the indestructible nature of reality and life, then could we not agree there is scope for accepting God?
Why redefine wisdom when it already exists? Wisdom only exists because of minds - rocks aren't wise. Nature is not indestructible (we are mortal) and so to define God as the internal wisdom of temporary beings doesn't feel logical. The idea of the Christian God in the West is that it is an external being not requiring any other identity but who condescends to enter the heart of humans and interact with them. Religion certainly evokes strong emotions however, as a non believer I'm still emotional and I don't feel that an external entity has forced its way into my brain and is altering its perception by triggering chemical reactions. I do accept that for a believer their perception of God is real, their brain is actually presenting their God to them. I think a personal conclusion I have is that gods are always a reflection of the mind that conceived them.
I'm not too well-read on eastern thought (I struggle to conceptualise the idea of the uncarved block for example as having any direct application to reality). The problem it has is with definitions in my mind (the more you define it the further you are from the truth sort of concept) so to equate God with wisdom or some part of thinking is to immediately start to move from Eastern thinking and you end up describing everything as God as there are no hard edges , merely interactions and intentions between everything.
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375
This thread is for proof that God exists
by juandefiero inhowever, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?
if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.
(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.
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Qcmbr
I think it is quite easy to examine evidences for god candidates but its really hard to pin down believers willing to posit testable evidence. Every believer -that suggests a god - so far in all discussions I've seen or been part of - has either failed to provide testable evidence or has failed to define their candidate being.
To examine a god one need only look at an attributed phenomenon (Zeus claims to have sired children who go on to have superhuman powers - to this day no humans have been found exhibiting aforementioned powers , Jehovah claims to have caused a global flood and extinction event during human history - no evidence of this event can be found on the earth's surface so again this god is not as claimed and so on.)
I would be willing to have anyone suggest a God, define that God and show what phenomenon they are responsible for (and why) and see if there are valid plausible , objective rebuttals that disprove that being.
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375
This thread is for proof that God exists
by juandefiero inhowever, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?
if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.
(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.
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Qcmbr
Scare quotes, shudder quotes,or sneer quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to signal that a term is being used in a non-standard, ironic, or otherwise special sense.They may be used to imply that a particular expression is not necessarily how the author would have worded a concept.Scare quotes may serve a function similar to verbally preceding a phrase with the expression "so-called",they may imply skepticism or disagreement, belief that the words are mis-used, or that the writer intends a meaning opposite to the words enclosed in quotes.
"Short Comings"
Suggest signing up for some tuition with a linguistics teacher..
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375
This thread is for proof that God exists
by juandefiero inhowever, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?
if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.
(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.
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Qcmbr
Cofty - I think you're suffering from the principle of people not valuing what they don't pay for. You have provided painstakingly referenced and researched information while dealing with the full gamut of attacks from all parts of the irrational spectrum. You may not be a professor in a university nor get employ as a lecturer but as someone who has both the life experience and depth of hard work and research to share your ideas you are outstanding.
Outlaw paid you a compliment without even realizing it - if he is now obsessing to the extent that he is parsing forum posts to look for attack points with the help of a 'Teacher with a Masters in Linguistics' you know you're posting some pretty awesome stuff - and if the best this teacher can come up with is ad hominem comments well D- for him and A+ for your posts. I'd return Outlaw the favour by parsing his posts with experts in his field of cartoons but my kids are at school.
Its hard to engage in a serious discussion about whether another being exists with superior knowledge than us ( a very valid and intriguing question) if faith keeps getting in the way. How can we expect rational logic to allow an interchange of ideas and tests if its constantly having to deal with unquestioning beliefs in Santa,Ra and Hogwarts. To present possible proofs of a God is a laudable aim IF one is willing to accept that the proof may well not hold up. Everybody has a right to share ideas but nobody's ideas get 'a pass' - even one's including kittens! The quickest way to drive to a conclusion is not to decide what that conclusion is before we start.
Evidence I once used for proof of God:
- Very emotional and beautiful subjective experiences (intense love, emotional bliss, serenity and peace, a feeling of absolute surety.)
- Perceived miraculous interventions in my life (found keys level and headache gone after blessing)
- Witness testimony of those who claimed supernatural experience and divine interaction sometimes coupled with a willingness to die for that knowledge.
- Near death accounts. Ghost accounts from trusted friends.
- Experiments upon the word of God subjective and objective (was I happier sinning? Would the world be happier and more equal living holy laws?)
- Consciousness. The ability to think and conceptualise in ways other living things didn't.
- Evidences that supported scriptures (places that existed, prophecies that occurred or were in process of fulfillment, textual analysis).
- The example of others and trust in them (no organisation this large and staffed by so many good people could be wrong.)
- The fine tuning of the physical laws of the universe including the location of the earth and other planets to act as defenses.
- Logic, given enough time and opportunity we would discover the fundamental laws of the universe and would become Godlike, if time travel were also possible then - gods.
- Societies innate desire and ability to believe. The confluence of early beliefs and the ability to trace roots of 'truth' in all of them.
I would be fascinated if we could provide some real testable evidence for something that if true should produce so much testable phenomenon. I have yet to find any. I am so far unable to find one description of a supernatural God and its evidences that doesn't fail when critically examined. I have no desire to destroy belief in a malicious way but I do want to understand how this universe works and I let faith cloud my perception for too long to fall for that again.
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Why Do Intelligent People Believe in God?
by cantleave inone of the most common thing thrown at atheists is - lots of intelligent people believe in god.
this darkmatter 2525's video is an excellent explanation as to why very logical people possess religious belief systems.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y201qzddzbg.
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Qcmbr
If I gave you a pair of blue glasses you could honestly claim that the world was many shades of blue - even if you previously had experience of its full spectrum. If you wore the glasses long enough or believed in some property of the glasses themselves (they reveal the inner truth of the scene - its essential 'blueness') you would be quite able to argue that the truth about how the world looked was indeed blue - and the reality would, for you be true, the world would be blue.
Faith in a concept or ideology works in the same way. The glasses are the concept that colors the world. Communism, religion, liberalism, anything that casts the world in a certain hue and is in and of itself believed will cause reality to accord. When I was an active believer God genuinely spoke to me, I had spiritual experiences, I enjoyed some moments of religious bliss and awe that were breathtaking. Through my eyes the world was genuinely playing out the battle between good and evil. My intelligence, just as surely as my eyes and other faculties are mediums and tools for perceiving the world.
The more I 'know' the more I am able to describe and compartmentalize the experiences around me but it doesn't necessarily follow that it will enable me to recognize that the 'truth' revealed by the glasses isn't superior or grounded in a platonic , objective truth.
Ultimately I need to doubt the glasses themselves, for me it was the disparity between the claims and the results, the places which weren't 'blue' even though I wore the 'glasses'. For me that was essentially the lack of real divine power being manifest via such things as healings. Its no good trying to show a believer that the world isn't blue - because to them it really is - no amount of intelligence can negate that single idea. To exit a bad / untrue idea the doubt must be in the filter itself.
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Surge in Mormon Suicides
by cofty inlast november the mormon cult has issued new rules about homosexuality labelling those in same-sex relationships as apostates who can be excommunicated.
children of gay couples are now required to leave home and repudiate their parent's relationship before they can be part of the church.. at least 32 gay mormon youths have killed themselves since the announcement of the new policy, and there’s been an alarming increase of suicidal teens and twenty-somethings in the church.....
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Qcmbr
Also - there is still debate on actual figures: ww.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3473487-155/suicide-fears-if-not-actual-suicides -
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Surge in Mormon Suicides
by cofty inlast november the mormon cult has issued new rules about homosexuality labelling those in same-sex relationships as apostates who can be excommunicated.
children of gay couples are now required to leave home and repudiate their parent's relationship before they can be part of the church.. at least 32 gay mormon youths have killed themselves since the announcement of the new policy, and there’s been an alarming increase of suicidal teens and twenty-somethings in the church.....
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Qcmbr
The Mormon collapse is apace. The next own goal is about to hit the news; the writer of the PDF at CESLetter.com is about to be given a church court. This is going to be publicised a lot and the number of members reading this article will increase - shelves will continue to break. http://cesletter.com/jeremy-runnells-faces-lds-excommunication.html
The LDS image of pro-family and progressive attitudes is being destroyed. The tragedy of LDS youth deaths is the sharp end of the ongoing tragedy of this cult. This is as real as it gets and an example of why faith based belief is only a step away from material harm. These suicides are all caused by tragedy in someones life and the recent LDS statements and policies against gay people and their children has undoubtedly contributed if not caused many of these suicides.
The LDS leadership are also , stupidly, opposing medical maruijana in Utah which is already costing them internal support http://www.sltrib.com/news/3514017-155/kirby-i-know-that-medical-marijuana?fullpage=1.
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The Guardian asks the question: "Are people ever converted by street or doorstep evangelists?" Do you want to answer?
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/27/are-people-ever-converted-by-street-or-doorstep-evangelists.
has anyone ever actually been converted to a different religion by people who knock on the door, hand out leaflets or proselytise in public places?.
kate percival, london e15.
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Qcmbr
I did over 70 door to door over 2 years on an LDS mission in England Manchester. Did they stay active - nope. -
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What are the biggest holes in evolution?
by shadow inhow honest are the proponents of evolution?
idk but curious to see what type of response there is on a topic like this or does their study only seek to confirm their preconceptions and ignore uncomfortable facts?
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Qcmbr
Evolution is not a debate about magic. It poses no challenge to a supernatural world except where the supernatural is the explanation for observed material things. Old magical stories about undying gardens , immortals, supernatural fruit and talking animals did once provide an explanation for observed life. More importantly, from a social aspect, they provided a story to satiate the curiosity of mankind. They just don't fit the evidence and once that has been collated, collected and compared it is clear that another more mechanical process is at work. Evolution challenges the mythical creation stories from the human past.
If an individual wishes to look for holes in evolution in order to promote a bronze age myth then they are clearly foolish. If an individual wishes to expose incorrect parts of current models regarding evolutionary processes for the furtherment of human knowledge then the tools, means and methods are available via science, education and practical experimentation and discovery; they are a welcome member of the global human effort to better understand our world.
Evolution is the elegant and simple realisation that whenever a self-replicating structure employs an imperfect copy process change is inevitable. The elegance of that simple idea is that it explains the observed bio-diversity of life - a self-replicating structure - not only in the present but also as evidenced by the historical record (the ancestral record as displayed by fossils.) The strength of the answer is in its 100% agreement with every single avenue of testing and exploration from the microscopic genetic level through to the bio-mechanical shared body plans of mammals.