For me the one thing that stood out above all other things was the lack of desire to go to heaven - to me that was so strange. I could handle no blood, own bible version, no gifts of the spirit etc.. but talking to JWs and actually hearing that they didn't want to go 'home' , didn't want to live with Jesus (with the 144000 I guess) and only wanted to stay on earth with other JWs forever and ever. That just crumpled me as I hope for so much more... I just couldn't understand why all this effort was required merely to move no further from here and what a tremendous cost to be paid (most people die) - its the ultimate in religious evolution 'Survival of the Witnessest'
I used to ask whether they thought they'd be allowed space travel in paradise earth.. never got an answer (unfair question really.)
Posts by Qcmbr
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47what proves jw's aren't true?
by jwfacts ini am inactive and it took years of doubt to convince myself the jw's arent true.
i started doubting because i hated the idea that jehovah would kill 6 billion non-jw's.
the thing now that is the most important proof for me is that until 1954 jw's worshipped jesus and it is still in the watchtower charter, even though you now get disfellowshipped for worshipping jesus.
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Qcmbr
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Problems in paradise
by gringojj ini know there are a ton of problems with the idea of paradise.
i was just thinking about how much sense it doesnt make.
for example how is it supposed to work as far as housing arrangements?
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Qcmbr
Hi Grinj - be careful your almost arguing a young earth philosophy when you say that about costal erosion!!
Funny I was never taught that paradise was 'perfection' in terms of no laws of thermodynamics. To me paradise will be the people completely accepting each other, no wars, no politics, no hatred, no lies, no life threatening illness etc.. all the rest of things like building houses etc.. will continue however THAT paradise was only ever the millenium to me (ie 1000yrs where death still occurs). After that was a spiritual world made visible and the complete reunion of material and spiritual for ever - there we won't be playing with beach balls and wondering what to do - we'll have worlds to organise, explore, populate and we'll watch as our children go through a mortal life like ours and learn what can only be learnt through suffering and pain and so the cycle continues... -
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Belief-O-Meter Know Your Faith...
by EvilForce inthis is a fun little site where you spend 15 or 20 minutes answering 20 questions and it will give you the rankings of the 27 most popular religions in america by % basis on how much you agree with them.
go to: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html my results listed below: .
1. unitarian universalism (100%) .
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Qcmbr
Phew - I was a bit worried for a minute - but look at number 2!!!!!!!! Anyone want to give me a bible study :)
1. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (100%)
2. Jehovah's Witness (83%)
3. Sikhism (80%)
4. Orthodox Judaism (75%)
5. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (73%)
6. Bah?'? Faith (71%)
7. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (71%)
8. Islam (67%)
9. Reform Judaism (62%)
10. Eastern Orthodox (53%)
11. Roman Catholic (53%)
12. Hinduism (53%)
13. Liberal Quakers (52%)
14. Jainism (51%)
15. Unitarian Universalism (46%)
16. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (45%)
17. Mahayana Buddhism (43%)
18. Orthodox Quaker (42%)
19. Seventh Day Adventist (42%)
20. Theravada Buddhism (41%)
21. New Thought (35%)
22. Scientology (31%)
23. Neo-Pagan (31%)
24. New Age (22%)
25. Taoism (20%)
26. Nontheist (14%)
27. Secular Humanism (14%) -
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marriage in the new system
by gringojj inluke 20:33- 36 talks about there will be no marriage after the ressurection.
my wife doesnt understand this and i know nothing about it.
what is the wts stance on these verses?
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Qcmbr
..of course there will be marriage in the 'new system'
unfortunately I can't prove it using just the bible :( and I'm presuming additional scripture is verbotten.
It just wouldn't be heaven for me without my Eve - what would be the point in heaven if all the best bits of life here on earth were lost? Nope I have to believe that the family is eternal. -
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Is Joseph Smiths's tophat kept in some sacred place in Salt Lake City?
by IronGland inyou know the one he dropped those rocks into then stuck his head inside and found the book of mormon?
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Qcmbr
fair enough - you can take that idea to any religion though.
Why believe in a little blue god and a a world with milky oceans
Why believe in a small carved image of an elephant god
Why believe that your ancestors walked through a sea carrying a box of gold (which they conveniantly lost)
Why believe in a nappy wearing Elohim (I mean come on!)
Why believe in lightsabers (..but wouldn't it be cool?!!!)
Why believe in a man who dies and then comes back to life before flying off into heaven
Dunno.... I'll take my chances with the man and the hat (by the way - that isn't how he did it but thats another story for another day and very very probably a totally different forum..:) Night night -
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Is Joseph Smiths's tophat kept in some sacred place in Salt Lake City?
by IronGland inyou know the one he dropped those rocks into then stuck his head inside and found the book of mormon?
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Qcmbr
Irongland - I've noticed your quite vitriolic against the LDS did we wrong you in a past life - ahhh bums I can't say that - er did we wrong you in the pre-earth life..?
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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Qcmbr
what encyclopaedia is that? I think if someone goes apostate (actually attacking the church in public) then people wouldn't be encouraged to spend time debating the church with them. I agree with the point about small communities where living in each others pocket could get difficult BUT that would happen for most highly committed organisations - it still isn't church policy - quite the opposite - that's why every month I have a list of members of the church - active and less active to go and visit and hang out with. Disfellowshipment is normally a very discrete affair and very very few people are told about it - of course there are always exceptions where someone has a runaway gob bur again that is their fault not the church. For the record I have never sat in on any disciplinary councils - there aren't very many.
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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Qcmbr
OK I'm going to break one of my self imposed rules - not to bloat this site with shed loads of LDS bumf (I only do ity bits normally) that is so much religious spam to you all - its just to clarify the official position regarding families and the LDS church - anyway EF I'm sure you'll find stuff far more useful for any ire you might want to direct;)
“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
“All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
“In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
“The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
“We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.
“Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. ‘Children are an heritage of the Lord’ (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
“The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
“We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
“We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society” (Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).
and before anyone goes on about headship principles....
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:39 - 42)
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— -
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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Qcmbr
I'm mainstream Mormon - the one with the 12 million members.
I remember something one of our prophets said about the coloured people (apologies if that's not pc :) and Priesthood scenario which in a nutshell he said it should have happened along time ago (priesthood for all).
Its definately something I struggled with for a long time (being born in Africa I do find myself somewhat biased) and I was looking for some understanding of why the Priesthood was not extended to all men in the church. This is the answer I received (this came after a lot of prayer and study - up to you whether you agree with me on its source..)
The role of the Priesthood of God is to act as the ultimate servant NOT the as master. The time was when only the leadership of Israel and the Levites held the priesthood within Israel(and the world - I won't bring LDS scriptures into this to show exceptions). The priesthood is extended to other races and peoples only when the current holder of it has been humbled and learnt to serve. Therefore the reason why the Israelites didn't have the higher priesthood was because of the Mt Sinai fiasco (restricted to a lesser priesthood) causing damage to themselves and also those who could have been served over history. Jesus came and fulfilled the law and restored the higher law and priesthood (he organised a structure that had elders etc.. and was spirit based rather than performance based.) OK this is the contentious bit and I fully understand if you all disagree with me. The priesthood authority was lost through apostacy so once again most of the races of the earth lost the chance of the priesthood because those who had it couldn't understand it was to serve not rule others. Finally in the restoration the authority has been restored one last time and it is because of the LDS members failure to be humble sooner that this priesthood wasn't extended sooner to all men (even now there are loads of places that don't have lds missionaries (yea I hear that audible sigh of relief all round:) so in a way we are still failing the majority of people in at least offering them the Priesthood. I think initially the priesthood was not extended because of a mixture of the slave issue and prevailing feelings at the time (the church wasn't created in an antiseptic bubble - many people had feelings of superiority over the indians and other non european cultures - Britain led the way in overcoming slavery but we struggled with it a lot during the early part of this centuary.)
EF - there really is no official policy on shunning I'm a fairly up front and honest bloke - where there has been shunning it is because of idiots like me (see a way earlier post of mine) rather than a church policy. If 'that' idiot is a bishop then the damage he causes is horrendous. -
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Check out this Mormon Video! Halarious!
by inquirer inclick on the projector to watch this most hilarious video!
(right beside the joseph smith picture) .
you probably already seen this video (!!!!!!!!!!
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Qcmbr
You should watch the rest of the video that comes with it its hilarious. While you can disagree all you like I'm LDS and they made several fundamental errors that twist things. I'm presuming you are all a bit smarter than actually thinking that's all correct. Let me point out some obvious (to me) points of idiocy. There is a big difference between church leaders writing a personal opinion and church doctrine
We do not teach that Jospeh Smith was better than Jesus.
We do not teach that the black race were the 'fence sitters' in heaven.
We don't teach that Jesus was married or that God had sex with Mary.
The doctrine of proving yourself to God still relies 100% on grace (a point completely missed.)
Constant references to the 'Mormon Jesus' are just bonkers.
Satan doesn't have horns.
Men have polygamous wives in heaven.
God and A wife came to earth as Adam and Eve.
Indians are Jews - not at all - one tiny set of ancestors where Josephites fleeing Jerusalem.
They pointed out several things as though they were weird but actually are fairly normal:
1- War in Heaven.
2- God is our Father.
3- We are His children.
4- We are created spiritually before we are created physically.
5- There is a purpose to life and that we continue.
6- Jesus visited other people than the Jews.
7- God talks through prophets.
8- God lives somewhere.
Some valid points of difference they made:
Book of Mormon
God's visit to Americas
Temple Rites
Modern Day Prophets
Existence before earth life
I thought the idea of eternal sex was actually quite a good selling point! If there is any concept of heaven do Christians teach that we won't have sex anymore..? Just for the record their may be 'eternal' walking around, talking, eating, wearing of clothes etc.. shock horror.
EF just a final point - the LDS do not break up families - I have been in leadership for 15 years now and every single training and communique I ever see reinforces over and over again the primacy of the family and the importance of preserving it - we have no principle of shunning and actually counsel the sometimes over zealous missionaries to baptise individuals with the acceptance of the family (doesn't always work mind you). Sometimes individuals may decide to join the church and that causes rifts at home but the church (speaking of it as a whole as opposed to individuals) does not split families up.
And finally what was up with God in a terry nappy - surely they'd use a disposable!!!?