Posts by Qcmbr

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

Qcmbr

Sam - this thread is not a out how smart men are. Since we are now entering an era of genetic engineering I suspect we will be able to create all sorts of life forms within a few years. You must know that this argument holds no water. If God was a designer why did he do such a rubbish job of the human body? From a design pov it's atrocious. Unless god is a drunk we can only explain the absolute lack of design as adaptation of features to perform functions rather than features designed to perform functions. One very simple example is the collocation of the food and breathing pipe work leading to pointless choking deaths.

Tec - can you doubt that your experiences are objectively real, can you conceive of the possibility that you are fooled 100%? I suspect not, as you've alluded to many times you would not doubt your Christ. In fact imo you've moved into a religious phase where you have used mantra like phrases that don't actually mean anything ( Christ is light/love etc.) but do effectively stop a thought process. I will wager that your Christ will absolutely refuse to reveal a cure for cancer while millions die from it BUT will happily allow us, humanity, to inch towards medical solutions for these very illnesses Christ psssively ignor es. What I'm saying is that this internal dialogue with an imagined being is easy to understand ( I used to do it, Cofty did and anyone with a good imagination and a belief set regularly achieves whether it be with a saint, a deceased ancestor or some divine being.) The secret is to revealing the truth of the source ( our own mind) is in the quality of the information 'revealed', only if you can give quantifiable, testable info not available to your mind do you even have a hope of suggesting you aren't the source. We know over our long discussions here you have never been able to do so though your 'baby teeth contain the soul' revelation/idea was very inventive.

544

FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice in

i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.

he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.

finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?

Qcmbr

Believers do not tend to struggle in understanding why a culturally dead god is fake and a figment of imagination (Zeus, Ra etc.)
Believers do not tend to struggle in understanding why culturally alive but different gods are fake and a figment of the imagination (Jehovah v Allah v Xenu etc.)
Believers know exactly what proves their god (anecdotes - including scriptures, personal psychological experiences, cherry picked facts)
Believers know roughly why similar style proofs of others' gods are not valid (anecdotes are unreliable, deception, evil, wrong or out of context facts)
Believers know exactly who is in the group and who is 'other' and have names, words and a language to describe this.
Believers can spot rudeness , hypocrisy, close-minded thinking, stonewalling and lack of logical thinking in 'others'.
Believers know that their belief and lifestyle recipe will get results (someday) and everyone can get the exact same results. Failed results are caused by simply not trying had enough, lack of committment , unresolved sin or some such solvable human failing.

Believers are unable to conceptualise what would invalidate or identify their god as fake UNTIL they allow themselves to doubt. This is the real reason why the number 1 universal teaching of religion is not love, it is faith, belief without question.

If you wish to prove or disprove god exists then you have to have something to test. If you have nothing to test the question doesn't even make sense.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

lost made an interesting but worrying statement regarding there being no harm in people believing what they want. While not directly relevant to souls I think it would be worth exploring further on another thread perhaps but as a quick response I think it is critical what someone believes. In a social world where we depend on each other our behvaiour matters and beliefs can manifest in behaviour. One erroneous belief can have horrendous consequences. JW blood ban for example.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

Evil is the consequence of choice. This life is a test to see who can use that choice and choose good over evil. No good having a god (God's gift to the faithful) who is evil. So this life weeds out those who are unable to avoid temptation and gives them the best reward their behaviour allows. Only a few get to become Gods.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

Yep Cold, that was me Lisa was responding to. Personally , as a keen frequentor of Reddit, I get cat picture overload plus I can't stand the little furry bird killers . That's just me. This is my favourite cat clip. Obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awf45u6zrP0

This cat has presumably just personally answered the soul question.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

Cold Steel, sent you my abridged faith crisis via PM.

It is not for me to tear away anyone's coping strategy for confronting death and I think the notion of the spirit does fill that role for some. There are times when I am terrified by the concept of my own cessation and would love to be comforted by the idea of an eternal adventure as a conscious being however, until we can find a good evidence of this happening it can be treated alongside the other fantasy worlds ( he ones where I'm 6ft tall, win the lottery and can fly.) Scientific advances may well one day conquer the main causes of death and ageing and so enable a form of extended lifespan but tht is my only real hope now. Science hasn't found evidence yet of any spirit so I don't feel a need to make one up. What purpose does this spirit have?

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

DD, what has the concept of 'spirit' got to do with the neural capacity to form memories or to express friendship? Your comments suggest that you directly associate this idea of a soul/ spirit with individual behaviour , memory and social interaction. Please clarify why these given phenomenon cannot be the result of purely biological processes. Please do not fall into the mistaken assumption that any biological or chemical model would mandate robotic behaviour ( we can happily discuss robotics and programming elsewhere if you would like to discuss why. )

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

The moment we start mentioning concepts such as the soul we leap into a world of speculation. Pretty pictures of cats do not substitute for a serious discussion. I no longer believe in what I was taught by a fraudulent faith from a mythical book and therefore I must also reject such fanciful notions as souls, spirits and ghosts. If I were to learn that indeed there is something to consciousness beyond the brain and nervous system I would be thrilled. To get to that point would need evidence.

This is a summary of the evidence as far as I've ever read:

1 / Reincarnation stories

2 / NDEs

3 / Sightings of ghosts

4 / The subjective and intuitive experience of self

These can all be discussed elsewhere but it is clear that none of these produce evidence of a consistent or sufficient quantity to argue for anything beyond statistical chance, confirmation bias, perception mistakes, planted memories, chemical flooding of the brain and the temporary overstimulation of parts of the brain. This is not to dismiss them but to simply show that these do not meet the requirements to argue for a consistent phenomenon.

This is a summary of the evidence against a spirit IMO:

1 / It is not required under any biological definition of life. Cell division, DNA replication, respiration, procreation etc. need no additional factors to explain them.

2 / All human behaviour can be traced to biological and chemical origins and do not argue for some as yet unmeasured energy. Chemical conditions induce happiness, sadness, anger, fear and so on. A brain that is learning grows new neural connections. A brain that is damaged loses functionality. Some brains produce or experience abnormal chemical levels leading to such constructs as depression, bipolarity, genius and so on. The use of chemicals to redress these balances can remove the behaviour.

3 / When the brain returns to its natural state consciousness ceases ( we call it sleep but it has many measurable stages) We do not experience this state, no accessible memories are laid down, no perception is constructed for us with the slight exception of REM.

4 / With the exception of obvious physical trauma deaths the process of death is not specific and occurs in stages. Sometimes it takes years as parts of the brain shut down. People declared dead can be resuscitated. People may go unconscious over a long time until the automatic signalling system portion of the brain shuts down and the heart stops beating. Brain activity will continue to flicker for some time afterwards in autopilot. If a spirit were an essential part of life it would be clear when death occurred, every single time.

If we argue for a spirit we must conclude that it itself has no memory, is totally dominated and controlled by the biological systems of the body, plays no part in determining emotional state, carries no character or state at birth ( children's behaviour absolutely matches well studied brain development paths), does not maintain character ( amnesia, alzheimers and so on) , is unable to maintain a sense of self independently ( deja vu, anaesthesia, being drunk, illness or physiological stress induced delirium) , has not been observed at any level, micro or macro in any biological systems nor is it predicted by any models ( no model predicts it and no unsolved biological question would be solved by it.)

It seems the greatest argument for a spirit is based on religious ideas, the need to explain reality as having some unmeasurable, mysterious essence which privileges the conscious being and flatters them as being not only vital in a vast universe but actually the cause of it ( the world was built for us idea.)

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

Sourced from mormonthink.com

LDS definition of spirit as taught in church today

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12:9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2:7;D&C 88:15; Moses 3:7, 9, 19; Abr. 5:7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2:26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:16–17)

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Qcmbr

What are we defining as life? The whole idea of a spirit as somehow a necessary distinct item that carries someone's essence and is eternal utterly falls apart when we examine life through a microscope. Individual cells live and die and, like bacteria, can survive beyond the host. Are we pretending that they also have spirits? Will this invisible heavenly realm be populated largely from the very blood cell spirits that (Mormon ) heaven will have determined have no further functional place in the resurrected body ( no blood). If bacteria are somehow to small to have a spirit then at which evolutionary level do spirits turn up, jellyfish, lichen, oak trees, snakes....?

Considering the issue of evolution and Mormon theology that all spirits precede the physical body are you suggesting that spirits in heaven are evolving and that god allocates just enough spirits for each species ( so the dodos were doomed whether the sailors ate them or not) ? The problem doesn't get any better if we start suggesting that god allows certain types of spirits to inhabit multiple species ( a cat spirit in heaven could be in a lion, tiger or domesticated cat for example) because that still struggles with the evolutionary cut off points, where do birdlike dinosaur spirits get the boot and the bird spirits start getting inserted?

Do we let plants have spirits? Do we go as far as Mormon theology does and start ascribing spirits to non living ( according to scientific standards) things like rocks and planets? If you wish Cold Steel we can get a bit further in and discuss what JS really taught about spirit and we can see how incompatible it is with any practical attempt to follow these things through to their logical conclusion.