all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
dear Terry...
you said: "BEFORE God began creating...there was nothing and nothing to know....nobody and nothing to LOVE."...
God always knew and experiences love because of the unity of trinity...another "other" toward which love can be given and received...a constant reciprocity, so to speak, apart from creation. This God wanted to share the beauty of love.
the WTBTS Jehovah God is portrayed as a solitary entity who "needed to create" an object(s) for His affection.
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear Vanderhoven...
you said: "It is sufficient for salvation to believe Jesus is the Son of God without fully grasping His ontology...if one has a relationship with Jesus Christ."...
how can a person who doesn't understand the ontology of Jesus but who continues denying the teaching of the Holy Spirit by clinging to their own understanding actually be in a "biblically normative" relationship with Jesus if they have been denying the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His MANY means?...
the OT has statements saying that God is our salvation, King etc., Jesus said: "before abraham was, I AM","the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel". isaiah 7:14...which is translated, "God with us". matthew 1:23...the NT testament saints called Jesus God, Saviour and King, the orthodox church has consistantly taught that God is a unity of trinity...and the Holy Spirit is behind leading all of these people to believe and write this truth.
I think that accepting that Jesus is God the Son based on what the Holy Spirit began to teach in isaiah, what Jesus said in the NT, what the NT saints said and what the church teaches (whether one understands it or not) displays subjection to God in humility. That is the kind of person that the Holy Spirit CAN teach...
love michelle
why couldnt god simply forgive the so called sin debt, why lower his standards and require human sacrifice....
dear mP...
you asked: "Why couldnt god simply forgive the so called sin debt"...
scripture says that the wages of sin is *death...so, while death pays for sin it doesn't forgive sin or populate Gods kingdom.
God bought those who would believe back from death BY forgiving the sin debt with shed blood (OT and NT) while giving these ones life through or because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
" But concerning the resurrection of the *dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” matthew 22:31-32
*the implication of scripture is that the physical death of a man isn't followed by death of the spirit as well.
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear mP...
you said: "I love how people go about making statements about early xians when the truth is we know next to nothing about them...they treated them [slaves] so well they ran away aka Philemon"...
you just stated that onesimus ran away because he was being treated badly...you don't know that but you state it as fact.
The few words we do have suggest he could have "ran away" to hear paul and while with him he became a believer(v. 10)..."For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord." philemon 15-16
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
thank you for the great thread cofty
a thought I'd like share regarding the OP...the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit existed in perfect unity...until the time of the incarnation.
Jesus said: "before abraham was, I AM"...wouldn't that suggest that the proper name of the pre-incarnate Son is YHWH...not Jesus?
I think that the proper pre-incarnate name "YHWH" would be important in establishing why it was prophesied that "the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel". isaiah 7:14...which is translated, "God with us". matthew 1:23.
perhaps the JW doesn't recognise the importance of the name Immanuel in prophesy and that is another reason that they don't hold the same view of Jesus as the early church.
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear Christ Alone...
I wasn't arguing with you, I was striving for clarity
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear PSacramento...
mankind is a creation of God...the humanness of God the Son came from a creation of God...Mary.
dear Christ Alone...
you said: "But did Jesus exist as God before man was created? Yes! Jesus existed "in the beginning". John 1:1. This would be before everything else, including man."...john 1:1 says the Word existed before all things...it doesn't say that Jesus the Man existed before all things. Yes!...God the Son...the Word existed before all things but the flesh Man, Jesus came into being within the creation.
if you are saying that Jesus existed in the flesh before the creation (NOT just the notion of the Son's eventual incarnation as Jesus) then how do you reconcile that idea with the statement of God's nature..."God is Spirit"?
love michelle
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear PSacramento...
you said: " Where is the word created? to conceive in the sense of giving birth is not to create. "...
I'm not talking about "to conceive in the sense of giving birth"...I happen to believe that Jesus the Man was created at a point in [our] time. God created from His Spirit and the ovum of the virgin Mary...the result is a completely new creation. This in no way takes anything away from Jesus the Christ, but solidifies His UNIQUENESS. fully God, fully human.
Jesus came into BEING at the time of conception (He was not there, then He was there). God the Son is self-existant and didn't come into BEING, He's always BEEN. He said: "Before abraham was, I AM"...
do you believe that Jesus the Man is pre-existant and un-created? how have you come to these conclusions?
I think that because Jesus the Man is relative to the salvation OF man, it doesn't make sense and or even seem possible that Jesus the Man was pre-existant to the creation OF man. He couldn't really be OF the seed of Jesse if there was no Jesse yet Though, the need for a saviour(the Christ, Messiah) of man can be known ahead of [our] time (creation) by God since He sees the end from the beginning. Hence the certainty of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
love michelle
p.s. you said: "John 1:1 is a statement of nature. Jesus is divine. Like Colossians, Philipians and Hebrews, all statements of his equal nature with the Father."...having some of the attributes of God can equate with some of the characteristics of God...but being of the the same nature as God would make Jesus deity...fact scripture states that the indwelling Holy Spirit produces divine qualities or attributes in men but that doesn't make them deity...divinity and deity are corresponding but different.
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
dear PSacramento...
you said: "no where will you find mention that Jesus was created "...
Jesus the Man was created, it is mentioned in luke 1:31.
the office or role of the Christ is pre-existant and is fulfilled in the person of God the Son who is from everlasting. (rev. 5:12-14)
in order to fully restore the kingdom of God to israel (acts 1:2-8) the Son (john 1:29-30) had to be born in the flesh, die and be resurrected.
1 timothy 2:5...isaiah 9:6-7(note: from that time forward, even forever)
love michelle
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
dear Entirely Possible...
you asked: "Why won't any believe answer my question? I've asked politely several times.
If God can know/guess/predict/etc. the future and there IS free-will, is there ANY chance, any percentage or any possibility that a person making a choice could choose differently that God thinks or has seen it will turn out?"...
I think because God can see the beginning from the end He can see your final choice [regarding Jesus Christ] as well as every choice you make before that. He is ever present in your "present", past and future.
love michelle
p.s. I say "regarding Jesus Christ" for the reason that the bible IS a dialogue between God and those He chose to be His servants...So everything that He wants to relay to mankind is outlined in the bible. That being, HIS plan of salvation. This doesn't mean that He isn't concerned with those who don't believe, because He makes the sun to rise on the wicked and the righteous...but He DOES have a purpose that is fulfilled (romans 10:1-36)and that His purpose is fulfilled as a blessing to the nations through His servants is His primary concern...xo
