This was being discussed off topic on another thread, so I wanted to move it here. The comment was made by Entirely Possible:
Freewill was abolsutely taken away if God foreknew. If freewill was involved and someone decided to do something different than God foresaw, then he is no God at all and didn't foresee anything. If they HAVE to proceed as God foresaw, then they never had a choice.
My response was:
I figured that this would be brought up. But this just doesn't hold up to logic. Just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I know that. But I am not causing it to rise, nor am I preventing it from rising. If I put a bowl of vegetables and a bowl of ice cream in front of my child, I know which one they are going to choose. My knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.
It's the same with God. His knowing what we are going to do/choose doesn't mean that we don't have the freedom to do something else. It simply means that God knows what we will CHOOSE to do ahead of time. Knowing is not controlling.
Part of the issue has to do with time. If the past and the future exist for God just as the present does, the God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. God is not subject to time. God is not a linear entity. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present and the past. This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God.
Part of the WT problem scripturally is restricting God to the present. His existence is defined in such a way as to imply that time is part of His nature and that He is restricted by it.
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. This knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things.
EP's response was:
I figured that this would be brought up. But this just doesn't hold up to logic. Just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
The latter sentence is a perfect example of the former. Logic. If God knows what WILL happen, then it can't be prevented or changed. Otherwise, you would call it a GUESS.
The sun will rise tomorrow. I know that.
No, you don't. It's a reasonable certainty, but you don't KNOW it.
If I put a bowl of vegetables and a bowl of ice cream in front of my child, I know which one they are going to choose. My knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.
That's not the same thing as GOD knowing. And it's not a "go to hell or live in heaven" decision that involves allowing people to suffer and die along the way. Also, it's highly dependent on the vegetable and the ice cream.
It's the same with God. His knowing what we are going to do/choose doesn't mean that we don't have the freedom to do something else.
Not the same at ALL. By definition, if we choose to do something different that what he knows we will do, then he DIDN'T know.
My response:
Fine. I am a human and I do not have foreknowledge. It was an illustration. But merely knowing something does not take away free will. Knowing does not mean action. If God exists outside of time, and the scriptures show that time was a creation, then all things are visible to Him. Just by knowing and seeing what will happen does nothing to those that live in the present.
If I have a choice of two things, and God knows which I am going to choose, that does not take away my free will to choose one or the other. God knows what I will choose. But I am free to choose something else. God knew I would choose that option. But he did not force me to choose one or the other.
Logically, free will is not altered by foreknowledge.
Let's think of time travel. If I went back in time to 1865, I would KNOW that Lincoln would be assasinated. My knowing this outcome would not force any action on anyone's part. I could not be blamed for the assassination merely because I KNEW that it was going to happen. I would be an observer. Wilkes-Booth would STILL have the option of not pulling the trigger. But I KNOW that he will, because I existed outside of time.
I know it's a silly illustration, but it demonstrates that merely knowing an outcome does not in any way take away free will.
So what does everyone else think? Assuming that God exists, does His knowing the outcome and possible outcomes of all things take away from our freedom to express and act on our own will?