theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
God is in the OT...the Holy Spirit has revealed by means of scripture that Jesus Christ is God the Son. The fact that this mystery hasn't been revealed to you personally doesn't make it a lie. the OT scriptures had to be opened or revealed to the apostles too.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
you said: "I will address your scriptures below and show how they fail."...
how are you going to show me that God didn't forgive those sins?...how are you going to show me that Jesus, God the Son, isn't the One who forgave those sins? because that is my assertion, that is what you are going to have to disprove and show to be a fail.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
"how exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies"...
Jesus is God the Son and He forgave the jewish people thereby enacting/fulfilling the law...judging the people in order that the written law would be put into effect...the law isn't self fulfilling. laws are broken every single day they are not enacted or fulfilled until the law breaker comes before a judge and a sentence is handed down...God the Son, Jesus as judge, forgave and did not hold the sins against the jews from sacrifice to sacrifice He aquitted them. Jesus said that the pharisees followed the law but forgot about the mercy that was provided by God in forgiveness of sins with the sacrifice.
lev. 4:20, lev 4:26, lev 4:31, lev 4:35, lev 5:10, lev 5:13, lev 5:16, lev 5:18, lev 6:7, lev 19:22, numbers 14:19
love michelle
"Comeone surely you can see that is not from God. The same is true of the vast majority of the law. The concerns of the law show it for what it is."...from my post 2519: "the decalogue that God gave to moses is perfect and will not be altered...it will stand forever. the other laws were mans (the priests) attempt to further define what a person has to do to walk in righteousness"...mans laws are by no means perfect.
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
you said: "Really so rape and slavery are righetous "...
I think you are bearing false witness and judgeing men with evil intent. why do you so quickly jump to the conclusion that women taken into the protection of the victorious army were raped? An army steeped in the moral requirements of such a stringent law should be given more credit than you seem to be giving them.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
the law doesn't say a perfect man will come along...the law says that a perfect sacrifice is required.
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice ordained of God for the forgiveness of sins...for all in the world who would believe in Him.
in the law the people had to believe that the perfect sacrifice that they brought would suffice to be forgiven by God too.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
you said: "If a law is perfect and going to last forever then to say it will be altered significantly is a contradiction."...
I didn't say it would be altered. the people of God will always have to walk in righteousness before a holy God. the decalogue that God gave to moses is perfect and will not be altered...it will stand forever. the other laws were mans (the priests) attempt to further define what a person has to do to walk in righteousness...
paul did say that those ordinances that were against us were nailed to the cross.
I don't know for sure but I doubt that God will require that a man style his hair in a certain way to be righteous.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
the entire the law...all 613 points of it were written as a tutor to show how to walk in righteousness before a holy God...no one could keep all those points of the law and so a sacrifice was required to cover over all the times a jew missed the mark (sinned)...All God had to do to enact or fulfill the law was to forgive those sins...and that is what Jesus did...being God, He forgave those sins and fulfilled the law.
Jehovah God is named as the One to have forgiven sins in the torah. Jesus is God the Son with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit; Jehovah.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
you said: "But Mark 2 was about a time before Jesus died. You have completely skiped commentating on my reply where I show without doubt, that there is no ressurrection in Mark. Jesus never walks amongst us again.
If Jesus could forgive sins then your chrirstian claim about the requirement for him to die to forgive sins is wrong."...
under the jewish system the sacrifice was required in order for sins to be covered for those sins to be forgiven. Jesus provided the sacrificial blood to cover the sins that they might be forgiven. the final sacrifice for those jews who accepted Him as the Lamb of God and for the gentiles as the propitiation for their sins too, otherwise the gentile sins would remain uncovered and therefore unforgiven. Without His shed blood those sins of the gentiles would not be forgiven by God...only the jewish system of sacrifices would be recognised by God and the gentiles would remain outside of any redemption...when the wrath of God against sin (the judges judgeing) comes they would be "without God and hope in the world".
The christian claim about the Messiahship of Jesus and all that He accomplished on the cross for the jew and the gentile wasn't immediately known before Jesus went to His death...(they were surely disappointed when they asked if Jesus was going to restore israel to them at that time; acts 1:6) ...He told His disciples what was about to take place but they didn't know the significance to what was happening until AFTER after His death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit brought everything He had said to their rememberance.(acts 2:23) At that point they were given the revelation of what He accomplished and the OT prophecies and the temple sacrificial system were shown to the apostles to be a forshadow of the "things" to come...
All the things that were written in the OT by inspiration of the Holy Spirit about the suffering servant and all things written about a King redeemer (things that were written but weren't understood at the time of writing; these things indicated something was going to happen but at what time and in what MANNER, they didn't know)were shown by revelation of the Holy Spirit to be about Jesus who was the victorious King who suffered to redeem. At the revelation of these mysteries THEN the christain message of redemption in Christ was proclaimed...not before.
Jesus could forgive the sins of the jew (who He was ministering to in mark 2) under the sacrificial system before He was put to death and shed His blood because those jews would as a work of their faith bring a sacrifice at the prescribed time to have those sins covered over. even His disciples continued to observe the sacrificial system until everything was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit which happened AFTER they observed the required passover.
for the jew under their sacrificial system God didn't have to die to forgive sins...Jesus could forgive their sin knowing that under their system they would be making a sacrifice to cover their sins. that's why being God in the flesh, He could forgive their sins...but to include the gentiles (in the plan of redemption) who didn't have a sacrificial system HE Himself provided the sacrifice...therefore also fulfilling the promises of God to abraham that provided for all people to be blessed who believed in his God.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
the point of mark 2:6-7 is that the jews knew only God could forgive sins. their argument wasn't about the fact that Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet to forgive sins.
Jesus had the authority to forgive sins because He WAS God in the flesh not because He died and was resurrected.
In Christ (after His death and resurrection) there is no distinction between jew and gentile because at His death, for the jew, His shed blood was the final sacrifice for the covering over of sins (any one of the 613 that weren't observed to the letter) to gain the forgiveness of God. For gentiles (without the 613 laws) His shed blood covered over all sins that were committed against man and God. (without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin hebrews 9:22)
whether jew or gentile, sins are not forgiven until they are covered over. that is why in the jewish system you brought a sacrifice to God for forgiveness. psalm 32:1-2
Jesus, by forgiving the sins of both the jews and the gentiles who believed in Him fulfilled God's side of the law(without doing away with one jot or tittle of the jewish law). That is why I quoted mark 2:6-7 "only God can forgive sins"...that is how Jesus fulfilled or put into action the law. In a court of law it is one against another but the law isn't fulfilled or enacted until the judge judges and calls down the sentence.
love michelle
theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
dear mP...
you are right, the law of moses does not name Jesus Christ. But Jesus did fulfil the law. you will have to understand the law to see this however.
jews are judged by their law (the law of moses) and that is WHY that law will stand until all things are accomplished...at the final judgement jews will be judged by their law. (romans 2:12)
gentiles that do by nature what is contained in the law aare said to be a law unto themselves. Now not having the law they would even know about all 613 jewish laws but they would, by nature, understand what being just is and what mercy is and what being moral etc (this scripture doesn't speak about every gentile, only the ones who do do by nature...) (romans 2:14-16)
regardless of the law of moses on the part of the jews or any instinctive or internal natural law keeping on the part of the gentiles...paul goes on to say that both jews and gentiles have been confined under sin. (romans 3:9-18)
when a person sins those sins are held against you - stacked up. it is my understanding that if you are a jew then you are judged according to the law of moses there is provision that those sins against another are brought out into the open and the jew makes atonement to the individual(s) that were sinnned against...but... those sins are still stacked up and they still have to be covered over and forgiven by God and a sacrifice presented to Him.
gentiles without the law have no such provision - those sins remain stacked against them. there is nothing that will get rid of them or cover over them or remove them...regardless of how regularily you make atonement and ask forgiveness of the individual(s) you have sinned against.
the gentile will be judged by God according to all those sins that have not been covered over or removed...that means every single sin you ever committed! throughout the years that stack can get awfully big. (romans 2:12)
however the Good News is - God the Father sent His Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for those sins for ANYONE who would accept that free gift...the blood sacrifice that would cover over all those sins so that those sins would be forgiven by God in a similar manner as that in the jewish sacrifice that covers over their sins.
Remember the priests who caught a woman in adultery? they had a stack of sins that hadn't been covered over and forgiven by God yet (john 8:1-9)
***Jesus said unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins (naham 1:6)and Jesus said you must repent and believe to be saved...saved from what? God's wrath against sin in the judgement (romans 2:5)***
How did Jesus fulfill the law? mark 2:6-7
love michelle
