Posts by myelaine

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

you said: "Yes, love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."...

the love God part is the part that you seem to try to contravene using the other scriptures as proof texts. You imply that people don't have to repent and turn to God for forgiveness of sins and salvation as long as they are good and nice to Christs brothers. In the context of the whole gospel Jesus said the opposite of that.

for instance would you ever say to OUTLAW or Adamah or anyone, " you must turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of you sins and salvation or you will be lost and die in you sins?"...(we've been through this before and I know that you completely danced around the question and basicly answered that you'll leave the judging to Christ. Jesus Christ said that if you do not believe in Him you will die in your sins. He commissioned us to teach people this and make disciples...He gave His disciples authority to teach this...not what you teach.)

yes Israel had hard hearts but the fact is that they were chosen out of all the nations of the earth to be a blessing HOWEVER that might have played out. They still to this day represent TO US a people who crafted the LOVE GOD ABOVE ALL ELSE theme. So people without the law do by nature thing in the law...what law are you refering to? loving neighbour?...loving God and neighbour?...all 360 laws in addition to the 10?...do people find forgiveness of their sin and salvation in any law keeping? What does scripture say about that?

love michelle

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

myelaine

dear Adamah...

you said: "So then, since you threw the example of pedophilia out there, what exactlydoes 'God's law' have to say on the subject of pedophilia? Can you cite a scripture where God-given morality explains God's views?"...

There isn't one scripture about pedophilia. from the beginning of the bible God speaks to mankind using a marriage motif. He makes it clear that marriage isbetween a man and a woman and its greatest aim is the production of children. because the bible doesn't say how young a maiden fit for marriage is we can based on the objective (children) conclude that she would have started menstruation. Today girls usually start menstruation at around 10-12 years old but environmental factors play into the onset of menarche and so menstruation might have been delayed dependant on nutrition and possibly stress. The incedence of pedophillia is determinate on the attraction of an adult to a prepubescent child...in a culture such as the jews where there is stress put on marriage for procreation I would conclude that the need for a written rule drawing attention to it's illegality wouldn't exist.

We can actually see that the same thing can't be said for modern society since the two pronged development of loss of belief in a final judgement from God and a decline of the notion of sex inside marriage for procreation. Modernity has brought with it the sexual revolution and all that "values and morality" stuff left town running And societal laws have changed with the times. (That's what I was referring to in a previous post when I said that we as a society haven't maintained the laws we had and now it is a going to be hard for law-makers to resist the notion that pedophilia is just another sexual orientation no better or worse than any other)

You said: "See, that's the same problem with Jesus' law of love ("love your neighbor as thyself"): it sounds great in theory, but it offers NOTHING on specifics, so everyone is forced to exercise their own moral sense of what it means"...

i refute Tammy's interpretaion of Jesus' "law of love". Jesus taught and lived love the heavenly Father above and before anything else...His will be done. That is the beginning of the naohide laws and the ten commandments. The idea exponded in the NT is that loving the heavenly Father first one would be drawn to the Son for forgiveness because you couldn't keep all the other written laws of moses(communal) in spirt an in truth...and with assurance of forgiveness you are also given the presence of the Holy Spirit in your very person to help you to overcome (these natural tendancies of a fallen nature) which leads to being able to worship in spirit and truth.

That is the new nature that you and the Holy Spirit cultivate...the bible doesn't say much positive about "excercising their own moral sense" that I can recall.

love michelle

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

myelaine

dear Adamah...

You said: " And what's the problem with that? HOW ELSE should a community decide on what laws to implement, aside from using community-based standards"...well the problem would be the majority view would logically have greater decision making power and so given the decline in morals and fickle values displayed in american society...those in the minority (or even those with very strict codes of conduct) who don't want to be involved in the decline would be powerless to go against the flow of society.

I refer to the noahide laws because unlike the laws of moses they are not culturally or religiously specific...being the laws for mankind.

dear Island Man...

you said: " The bible - religion - is not the source of objective morality but only a means used by religionists to motivate others to follow the pre-existing moral code." I'm not sure what you mean by the pre-existing moral code...do you mean the natural code...Survival of the fittest? I would question whether the possibility of anything close to a code outside of the close familial unit. Look at times of limited chaos in america (riots) to see how quickly any code is thrown out the window. ordinary people will loot and vandalise because they can. The reality seems to be that there is only a very thin veneer of civility on civilization. At least the bible has the starting point of an eye for an eye to inject some objective equality instead of survival of the fittest.

love michelle

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

myelaine

dear Island Man...

I think the arguement is that without an objective foundation (God's law) then all attempts to outline "moral regulations" are subject to the bias or lack of bias in those making the laws.

an extreme example might be that pedophiles(sp?)might get traction in their attempt to redefine that act as a sexual orientation...no better or worse than any other sexual orientation. Morality and a productive and considerate set of values becomes subjective...and before you know it every objection is met with the label "intolerant" until values and morality don't mean anything anymore...we can see this to some extent in society today in peoples objection to the teaching of islam. People object to the teaching of mohammad and the fact that he is held up as the exemplar of that faith. To draw attention to the things that he taught as objectionable to WESTERN values(as being the absolute will of allah for all mankind for all time) will result in being labeled intolerant. their "law" or morality and value system is subject to mohammad's teaching...not what is a commonly accepted western moral and value "platform". It's crazy...their "system" is flawed by our standards but already we have dropped the ball in MAINTAINING the system we had in place and so we as a society have to reap the consequences of the fact that we can not get the genie back in the bottle, so to speak. One persons freedom is another persons captivity.

love michelle

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

your explaination about "law of love" that you refer to a lot in conjunction with your interpretation of the sheep and goats scripture doesn't make sense.

the law will be written on the hearts of people who believe in God, written by God. It isn't what's in a persons heart naturally. When the scripture talks about love being the summation of the law and the prophets etc...the first and most important was about loving God...even in the OT loving God first was THE motivation to inculcate the other laws into your heart.

in the NT a scripture that reflects this thought is found in 2 john 4-6 ...this is love that we walk according to His commandments, walking in truth as we received commandment from the Father. (The love that God commands is first love Him so that we can walk according to TRUTH and then we love each other.(refering to those in the body of Christ) truth and true love go hand in hand. the "law of love" that you talk about seems to be an attempt on your part to "allow" for people the OPTION of not making a decision for Christ at this time. The gospel message in context is about this IS the day of salvation. You're sending a very subtle message when you teach this message and at the same time say "the spirit and the bride say come"...what could be nicer after a high control cult? Someone intamating that no decision is required...it's cool with your lord as long as those, who chose not to make a decision, are nice to the least of His brothers...that is why what you teach is an anti-christ message. It's perfect for priming peoples hearts to accept THE anti-christ...he's all about peace and not repentance and turning to God too.

with the gospel message and the great commission in mind do you really think that Jesus sent you ahead of Himself to preach that He's going to give an anti-christ teaching a free pass? I'm serious, do you realise what you are doing?

love michelle

48

JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry in

the one question that is absolutely unanswerable by jehovah's witnesses that actually understand their own doctrines is this:.

can you show me even one new testament scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven while outside of the new covenant?.

most of us are familiar with the one proof scripture that has all the necessary elements tied together into one neat doctrine - matther 26: 27,28:.

myelaine

Oh goody...

Perry and tec basicly agree about some event that, at best, can only be approximated as to time, sequence and actual content.

Perry, have you forgotten that tec does teach that (other) people don't have to make a decision for Christ?...that is an anti-christ teaching. 2 john 7:11

wow...

48

JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry in

the one question that is absolutely unanswerable by jehovah's witnesses that actually understand their own doctrines is this:.

can you show me even one new testament scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven while outside of the new covenant?.

most of us are familiar with the one proof scripture that has all the necessary elements tied together into one neat doctrine - matther 26: 27,28:.

myelaine

scripture indicates that even those who have turned to Jesus for salvation can loose their salvation by turning away. It is entirely consistant with a JUST God. Yes, it is entirely consistant with scripture that those who have denied the Lordship of Jesus Christ are cast off even if they treat His brothers well. The NT is all about a PERSONAL salvation in Jesus Christ or you're lost.

even moses and the entire generation that went out of egypt perished without seeing their "inheritance"...the land that God gave them!

Unbelief is a sin...john 8:24...it is the spirit of anti-christ, tammy.

48

JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry in

the one question that is absolutely unanswerable by jehovah's witnesses that actually understand their own doctrines is this:.

can you show me even one new testament scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven while outside of the new covenant?.

most of us are familiar with the one proof scripture that has all the necessary elements tied together into one neat doctrine - matther 26: 27,28:.

myelaine

It is completely consistant with other scriptures that these ones Jesus is talking to considered themselves christians but didn't "behave" like a person who has the indwelling Spirit enabling them...they remain carnal (2 timothy 3:1-5 these behaviours are happening in the christian congregation...brother against brother) and because of that they were cast off as goats And not inheriting the kingdom that was promised to those in the covenant.

If people can enter the kingdom by treating the brothers of Jesus Christ well then the core gospel message, "come to Me"... is largely irrelevant.

love michelle

48

JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry in

the one question that is absolutely unanswerable by jehovah's witnesses that actually understand their own doctrines is this:.

can you show me even one new testament scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven while outside of the new covenant?.

most of us are familiar with the one proof scripture that has all the necessary elements tied together into one neat doctrine - matther 26: 27,28:.

myelaine

Dear Tammy...

these are your words which basicly restate what I had said you teach, " The parable of the sheep and the goats has to do with those who are not the brothers of Christ, but who did good to even the least of his brothers, and are granted entrance into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom. Those are Christ's words, not tammy's"...

you read that Jesus is talking to those who are not brothers of Christ but, the scripture clearly says that these are rewarded with an inheritance. The inheritance that is conferred on those IN the covenant.

love michelle

48

JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry in

the one question that is absolutely unanswerable by jehovah's witnesses that actually understand their own doctrines is this:.

can you show me even one new testament scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven while outside of the new covenant?.

most of us are familiar with the one proof scripture that has all the necessary elements tied together into one neat doctrine - matther 26: 27,28:.

myelaine

I don't think any one of you has ever objected to Tammy's teaching that people are forgiven and saved by being nice to people who are in the covenant.

why the shift in policy if it's a GB that teaches it?

love michelle