Posts by myelaine

you said: "But it doesn't matter: the command is not to forgive "those who are repentant" and you will be forgiven. It is to FORGIVE... period. And you will be forgiven."...

o.k...I know that repentence isn't a requirement of being forgiven(by us). the writer knows this as well. (I think) his stance is that in order to be forgiven (to salvation) by God, there is a need to repent by turning to Jesus. (otherwise God forgives everyone and there is no need to turn to Jesus or God for that matter because God does what ever Jesus tells Him to do..."Father forgive them")

there is no telling what the thief on the cross was thinking but he repented by turning to Jesus. first there has to be an acknowledgement that we have sinned before there is the acknowledgement that Jesus is the One who has the power to let judgement "pass over" us. I didn't say nor did the writer say that the thief ran through a long repentance speech like you suggest before he turned to Jesus in faith...a simple thought like, "I am guilty and need..." would be indication of repentence before turning to Jesus in faith, imo.

again, the people were essentially to turn FROM that which couldn't save TO Jesus who is the Saviour...to repent is to TURN AWAY FROM something. Strongs # 3340 ...in a religious sense sorrow for unbelief and sin and a turning from them to God and the gospel of Christ...

love michelle

195

Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

.

is forgiveness overrated?.

if i'm being completely honest with myself, there is a short list of folks who i haven't forgiven.

myelaine

dear AGuest...

I think the nuance you may have missed in the section talking about forgiveness and repentance is that the person that had done the harm may not have had a relationship with Jesus. Like the thief on the cross the act of turning to Jesus was repenting...a turning away from death. (he responed to Jesus with repentance and faith)...therefore he was reconciled with God and would be in the kingdom.

John the Baptist called people to repent...turn to God (repent) for the kingdom is near...and they were baptized, confessing their sins.

Colson said:"But they would have had to respond in repentance and faith, as did the thief who was crucified beside Jesus, in order for God to grant reconciliation"..."We must always offer reconciliation when, in the face of rebuke, the offender demonstrates repentance. But we need not extend restoration and peace to someone who has not repented. It is the passionate desire for reconciliation that enables us to offer true forgiveness. Forgiveness that is offered without the deep desire for the offender to be restored to God..."

...so above the desire (or not) to be reconciled to the one doing the harm, whether with a show of repentance (toward you) or not ...a forgiving heart would want the person to be reconciled to God.

love michelle

p.s. I would also like to note for you that my previous post is a condensed version of the chapter on forgiveness...there were personal stories and more in depth study of biblical texts in the "forgiveness" chapter of that book.

195

Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

.

is forgiveness overrated?.

if i'm being completely honest with myself, there is a short list of folks who i haven't forgiven.

myelaine

..."forgiveness" from Charles W. Colson's book, God and the Victim...perhaps this will open people up to different ways of thinking about sin, forgiveness and the "place" the two hold in our own lives. Forgiveness is too often seen as merely an excercise in releasing bad feelings and ignoring past harm, pretending all is well. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. True forgiveness often deepens internal passion and sorrow...a central misunderstanding that fuels many other myths about forgiveness is the notion that we are to "forgive and forget." The concept comes from two major passages of scripture: psalm 24 and jeremiah 31. In psalm 25:6-7, the psalmist asks God not to remember the sins of his youth but instead to remember His mercy and love. in jeremiah 31:34, God says, "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Christians are told to be like God, who does not remember sin but forgives wickedness. This would be a good principle to follow were it not for one fact: God does remember sin. We are told that one day we will all appear before God and receive our rewards based on the things done in the body, whether good or bad. God remembers sin and righteousness, and He uses the data to determine our due. When the scriptures say God has taken away our sins as far as the east is from the west (psalm 103:12) and will hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea (micah 7:19), they are using metaphors, not making statements of fact about God's loss of memory... When we try to forget the wrongs we have suffered, we lose our perspective on our personal history. In many casesm we are trying to create a less disturbing and disappointing past. Because we are terrified that we cannot face the past without being overwhelmed by pain, we never taste the wonder of God's forgiveness - both of our own sin and the sin of the those who have harmed us. The effort to erase the past fuels a spirit of independence and denial...forgiveness meant cutting losses, ignoring the pain of the past, and keeping busy enough to outpace the sadness. Yet this kind of detachment dulls the senses and distorts perspective. Zeal to forget blinds to the baggages carried from the past and strengthens determination to remain emotionally distant, rigid, and dogmatic. For most believers, the proof of forgiveness is the absence of anger. It is assumed that if you still feel a stab of betrayal when you see the perpetrator, then you haven't forgiven him. If you still seethe when you remember, then you haven't forgiven him. The proof, so it seems, is in the emotional pudding - strong emotions are evidence you have failed to forgive. Christian thinking about and living of forgiveness have too often been distorted; as a result they seem either cheap or impossible. Many attempt to put their injuries behind them through a dramatic, climactic, once-and-for-all deliverance from anger. They assume that forgiving involves a sudden, marked change from being filled with bitterness and hatred to feeling untroubled peace. Those who hold this view refer to forgiveness as a finished event (it took years before I forgave...) rather than an ongoing work of the Spirit of God. Some people do experience one climactic moment when a transition from bitterness to forgiveness takes place. The problem comes when they assume that the struggle to forgive is then over and the tumultuous feelings resolved. It is naive to believe that fogiving another, whether for a single failure or a lifetime of harm, is ever entirely finished. in truth, the more fully we face the harm we have suffered, the more deeply we must forgive. Forgiving another is an ongoing process, rather than a once in a lifetime event. The once forgiven, always fogiven approach often leads to enormous pressure to keep bad feelings at bay.Are feelings of anger or hurt contray to forgiveness? Listen to the heart of God..."Is not ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him" jer. 31:20 Sin hurts God, and it draws a passionate response from Him. God speaks of His hurt and anger over the sin of His children in deeply personal terms. Our natural response to deep personal pain may be to deaden our hearts to the sorrow. God's way is different. God says He will remember the one who hurt Him, no matter how deep the anguish. God is active in His expression of holy anger. Hurt and anger are not the final proof of a lack of forgiveness. In fact, an absence of strong feelings implies a lack of the heart's involvement. When bitterness is released, there seems to be a propensity to toss holy anger out with it. True, anger can be full of sinful demands. But anger can also be a loving response to someone who has violated the beauty of God's glory and the humaness of others. Anger can reflect a passion that desires to destroy the cancerous arrogance that will eventually sap beauty and life from the offenders soul. If we forsake holy anger the passionate desire to destroy that which comremises what god intended we are apt to detach ourselves from the battle on the grounds that we are exhibiting an unforgiving spirit. We are less likely to deal with the plank in our own eye or the speck of dust in the eye of the one who hurt us. Most people assume that revenge is bad, that the desire for revenge is a base, primitive emotion that has no place in christian society. Unfortunately, we are all apt to dress the concept of forgiveness in garments that are too refined and delicate to handle the battle of life. Many christians view the disire for revenge as incompatible with love and forgiveness. Revenge seems to come from an ugly, bitter heart. But is that necessarily the case? Revenge involves a desire for justice. It is the intense wish to see ugliness destroyed, wrongs righted. Anyone who strays outside the parameters of love and acts to destroy God's order is a weed that might diminish the beauty or destroy the fruitfulness of His garden. But a comittment to God's glory is the heart of true biblical revenge. Many people believe that the person with the forgiving heart turns the other cheek. He accepts emotional and even physical harm without complaint or confrontation. This view is often encouraged by manipulative people. Forgiveness involves a courageous commitment to overcome evil with good and the good that is done is an assult against the inner cancer of arrogance and independence that, left unchecked, will eat away at the offender's soul. Overlooking harm in order to achieve a sentimental but nonsubstantive peace actually encourages sin. A forgiving heart offers a glimps of the mysterious wonder of God's character. The taste of God we have to offer others will be no greater than our own taste of God's forgiveness. Jesus said to Simon, the arrogant, legalistic Pharisee, "He who has been forgiven little loves little." Jeus seems to be saying that the energy to forgive is directly related to our awareness of how much we have been forgiven, or how deeply we deserve God's condemnation. Simon was impressed with his own command of godliness; consequently, he was not drawn to the One who can forgive sin. We need faith to see our own sin because our deceit makes us compare our sin with that of others and blinds us to our own need for forgiveness. Faith occasionally enables us to glimps the depths of why we need God's ongoing mercy. Through faith we see beyond our presumption of innocence and into the heart of the Father who forgives sin. Once we have experienced God's mercy and forgiveness, we will find the energy to cancel others' debts. A taste of His mercy enables us to offer others a taste of it. And we will not stop with offering forgiveness; following God example, we will pursue the one who hurt us for the purpose of reconciliation. We see in action Jesus' cry from the cross: "Father forgive them." When the Lord forgave those who crucified Him, did He grant to each of them, at that moment, a place of eternal intimacy with His Father? I don't think so. I believe He was freeing them from the immediate consequences of killing Him. They deserved the kind of judgement that occurred in the OT when Israelites touched the Ark of the Covenant: instant death. Jesus forstalled their "punishment" by asking for them to be forgiven. But they would have had to respond in repentance and faith, as did the thief who was crucified beside Jesus, in order for God to grant reconciliation.What can we learn here? We must always offer reconciliation when, in the face of rebuke, the offender demonstrates repentance. But we need not extend restoration and peace to someone who has not repented.It is the passionate desire for reconciliation that enables us to offer true forgiveness. Forgiveness that is offered without the deep desire for the offender to be restored to God and to the one who was harmed is at best antiseptic and mechanical. At worst, it is pharisaical self-righteousness. Forgiveness is far far more than a business transaction: it is the sacrifice of a heatbroken father who weeps over the loss of his child and longs to see the child restored to life and love and goodness. Further, a forgiving heart does not wait passively for repentance to occur. Instead, it offers the offender a taste of mercy and strength intended to expose and destroy sin. Good food is neither bitter - strong without mercy - nor saccharine - tender without strength. An enemy faced with the surprise and shame that results from being offered good food will respond with either fury or stunned disbelief. In either case, change will occur. We offer others an understanding of the gift of God's wrath and mercy. It is both a warning (God hates sin) and an invitation (embrace God's goodness and come under the blood of protection) To offer forgiveness, we must have tenderness to show mercy and the strength to confront the enemy's arrogance. love michelle

18

The 2nd Coming has already been proved to be a mistake

by Terry in

while the whole world of christianity waits and longs for the 2nd advent of jesus because it will bring their reward.... jehovah's witness already had theirs!

they simply declared that "jesus is back!".

1914 was the date assigned.. true, jesus was invisible.. true, armageddon didn't come.. true, the world went on spinning as before.. but, 1914 was date certain and remains so.. instead, jehovah's witnesses starting treating armageddon the same way mainstream christianity treats the 2nd coming.. it's coming any minute!.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you asked: "What would a REASONABLE person conclude?"...

thank you for asking...:)

It's not out of the question that God could resurrect the generation that pierced Jesus at any time He chooses.

love michelle

43

How Important is knowing the Truth, Really?

by cameo-d in

is the quest of finding the real truth even attainable?

is the quest of trying to find out worth the risk and the sacrifice of losing the love of friends and family?

oh, i know many of you will say the "love" is fake or not true if it can't hold up to scrutinty.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you said: "It is precisely because we don't have the originals that what we do have IS GUESSes and SPECULATION. Further, it isn't reconstruction from mere copies of originals because we don't even have that! No first generation copies exist either.

The foundation of original writings was ORAL, you'll recall. So, even the original manuscripts were distillations of verbal communication best described as hearsay."...

we don't have the originals NOW, but what we have may have been copied from originals and why wouldn't they be?...you're looking for a nefarious conspiracy where there isn't one! The NT says, "it is written"...about Jesus and His ministry, so we can go to the OT and learn about Him and the reason for His ministry. The OT wasn't "oral" like the NT was. So what we need to know about Jesus being the King and Redeemer and only Saviour is "traditionally" written. + paul's letters may have circulated among the churches...they were likely copied not orally transmitted. we're talking about leaders among the congregations that could read and so probably could write as well.

"A pharmacist will not fill a prescription from a doctor unless they can see the original slip in his own handwriting. You can't walk in with YOUR recopied version and get the pills!" ...that's not what I said...a person will take pills the dr. prescribes relying on him without test results...an educated guess but a guess just the same.

"You can't offer less than best evidence (originals) in a court of law without stipulation either." hello!...people swear on the bible(word of God) as the highest authority that there is that one could "lie" towards in a court of law. the evidence is only as "good" as the people giving it, really. if someone's motive is to mislead they may do that if they can think they can get away with it. YOU put the motivation to mislead squarely on the shoulders of the church when they gave the best evidence that they had.

"A recopy of a third and fourth generation verbal remembrance is the best we have which clearly indicates God Almighty was NOT INTERESTED in preserving anything written as a guide for pure worship!" ...I would say that because God works with human beings that die and that have faulty rememberances He's DID use the means best suited to the task. He also said that the Holy Spirit would lead the followers of Jesus Christ into all truth...now if you want to look for a nefarious conspiracy you need not look any farther than those that seek to use THE INVISIBLE as a cover for their misleading ways.

"The Catholic Church tried always to keep Scripture on the down-low and pump up their own Tradition and Authority instead." ...the RCC turned into some nasty business for a long time but/and even the scriptures refute some of their wrong ideas...surely that says something about their desire to conspire from the get go.

"The Authority of Official Orthodoxy ruined Christianity and continues to run rampant in Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body." ...not so...Jesus sent out a group to evangelize, productive groups have authoritive leaders. The GB is a whole different ball of wax that (it can be agreed apon) neither holds to orthodox tenents nor practices basic christian "community" of build up and edification...the GB builds ITSELF up and tears everyone else down...you must agree they are quite different that the "modern" RCC?

"There is simply no "there" there to interpret." ...you miss the point! there is a WHO...and they meet at a there...to do a what...in the name of the WHO.

love michelle

p.s. why are the pages all wonky on this thread?

3

Abusive Relationships & Cults: Any Book Recommendations?

by InterestedOne in

jw
friends

can anyone recommend some good books on abusive relationships and how they relate to people joining cults?

i have heard of steven hassan in the cult area, but what about the abusive relationship aspect?.

myelaine

dear InterestedOne...

you have a pm.

xo

43

How Important is knowing the Truth, Really?

by cameo-d in

is the quest of finding the real truth even attainable?

is the quest of trying to find out worth the risk and the sacrifice of losing the love of friends and family?

oh, i know many of you will say the "love" is fake or not true if it can't hold up to scrutinty.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you said: "All Scripture---every last shred---is some kind of reconstruction. You can't get interpreted TRUTH from guesses about who said what!"...

Because we don't have the originals but copies of the originals doesn't mean that what we have is guesses and speculation. we can count on the accuracy in the bible as far as religious faith and morals. some people rely on less accuracy when taking medications prescribed by a doctor who has to wait for test results to be sure that you even have the condition he treated!

Having faith in God and Jesus by way of what is written in the bible requires trust and you said yourself that you don't have that kind of trust...but honestly, to judge that everyone from God on down to the apostles and the church of today is just out to stick it to you and your life is...ummm...paranoid delusional...(there I said it)

love michelle

20

They've Called a Snow Day

by jgnat in

jw
friends

no field service in edmonton today.

twenty centimeters of the white stuff is expected over the weekend, "double whammy to wallop edmonton.

" our deep freeze winter festival is going ahead as planned, however.. p.s.

myelaine

my friend's patio in castledowns, edmonton...

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2098189&id=1110889045&l=8e809079cf like eek...

195

Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

.

is forgiveness overrated?.

if i'm being completely honest with myself, there is a short list of folks who i haven't forgiven.

myelaine

dear journey-on...

you said in post 4649: "I go back to what I said earlier in this thread. You have forgiven when you no longer desire revenge. When you can say, I have let it go and given it to the higher powers for judgement, you have forgiven. That doesn't mean you should accept it or forget it. Just don't keep it in your "accounts" any longer. Write it off!"...

revelation 6:10 has the saints crying for God to avenge their blood...(it seems they haven't forgotten)...forgiveness is complex.

love michelle