Posts by myelaine

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

you said: "Because you limit the full power of the Holy Spirit to a chosen few"...I would hardly call millions and millions of people who have entered into the unity of the Father and Son since the beginning of the church "a few".

didn't Jesus Christ disfellowship/ex-communicate the pharisees from Himself, His disciples and the kingdom, Tammy?

"You sure about that?

They rejected Him. They killed Him. They 'disfellowshipped/ex-communicated' Him and his disciples from their temple."

...Jesus heard their "case" and judged them didn't He?...were they, at any point, asked to enter into fellowship with Him? His disciples? or were they told that they wouldn't enter into the kingdom?...He sounded pretty firm on His ruling...the church, however, remembering that they were shown mercy by Jesus Christ may disfellowship or ex-communicate a person but they also welcome back a repentant sinner...just like God has shown them to do.

you said: "As for the things on love: let me ask you a question Michelle. Of those who have not been given an opportunity to know Christ or God (but who do act in love toward their fellow man, golden rule, mercy, forgiveness and all that)... do you think those people are going to hell?" ...I kinda thought you would continue your "law of love" arguement...I've commented in other posts to you and others about what I believe about those who HAVEN'T heard the gospel. Lets bring this a little closer to home, shall we?...Tammy, are there ANY gentiles here who don't have the law?...or haven't heard the gospel of Jesus Christ?...NOT likely...that IS the power of God in and for the church...2 cor 10:3-6...ephesians 6:10-17...I'll ask you again: "When gentiles do by nature the things of the law they are a law unto themselves...the nature of the law is an eye for an eye...therefore, do unto others as you would have them do unto you...what has this got to do with people being forgiven solely on the basis of their apprehending the shed blood of Jesus Christ for their salvation?"...since NONE of the people here are without the law (unless they are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ) they will be judged by the law...and you know that NO ONE can keep the law. How is your "law of love" going to cover them? The Holy Spirit has succeeded in using the ministrations of the church to bring these people here AND their every thought captive to Christ in order that they make a decision FOR Jesus Christ and you're letting them off the hook, so to speak, by feeding them a lie, your "law of love" ...Jesus said in john 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." and here almost 2000 years later you say, words to the effect, surely you will not die...

the theology of the historical/orthodox church from the time of the apostles to this very day is consistant with what Jesus Christ taught...all that He taught...not just the points that can make Him seem to be non-judgemental towards those who reject Him.

you said: "I would have to disagree on that. Does the church still teach that someone who commits suicide cannot be buried on holy ground, and is not going to heaven? What about not being called teachers? What about giving all you have to the poor? Christ did not sit in a huge cathedral, with gold and jewels dripping off him; with ties to political interests, etc. What good was any of that 'theology' when the church did not follow Christ, but instead followed its own interests, lying and saying that those were in the name of Christ? What good was that theology when native american children were being abused and deprived of their heritage and families?

you said: "So what good is theology without love? It is nothing without love, Michelle. Absolutely nothing. Love covers over a multitude of sins, Michelle. Not correct theology."

...are you making a distinction between theology and doctrines or those within the church who are disciples of Jesus Christ and those who are not?...are you taking into account the protestant reformation which saw the church grow and mature in its formation of doctrine (not theology)? theology is the study of God and how He relates to the world. christian theology is the study of how God relates to the world and His church. Which makes me wonder...why do you go on about the sins of the church but you wont cover or forgive the multitude of them?...you hold those sins against the the church and bring them up to suit your purpose...is that Christ like?

you said: "It [doctrines] changed from the beginning. You can see that clearly just from looking at the apostles creed vs. the nicene creed. The nicene creed 'added' to the apostles creed."...

...the theological and scholarly consensus was clarified in a written document for the benefit of those who were to teach and preach so that it would be known throughout the congregations that this wasn't just the opinion of a few people. this theology of God would form a sound foundation in which Jesus IS the cornerstone. With that many witnesses anyone can and should trust, put faith in and continue to build faith in the God expoused in that theology. that theology witnessed by the Holy Spirit held the hearts of men until recently, Tammy. With the advent of contrary cults and sects that came up with their own theology and subsequently caused men to follow other doctrines as well...mens hearts hardened and many no longer want to endure even sound theology...they would prefer to wander their own way...even when Jesus sends out shepherds to bring them back...

let me ask you, has your lord done his job as far as shepherding you into a great flock of his sheep?

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

I'm not sure where you think my theology is close to the WT's. I haven't ever said that only the disciples were given the Holy Spirit. That wouldn't be consistant with the command of Jesus to go into the world and teach and make disciples and baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I've state that there is the need to get the correct foundational teaching about who Jesus Christ the man is from the church who was given the teaching authority(the apostles and later disciples that Jesus sent out). The Holy Spirit bears witness to this teaching in that He has caused the historic church to grow from the first small group of disciples that were sent out, each of these subsequent disciples that are brought into the church are given the gift of the Holy Spirit that is how the church grows from generation to generation.

We can be certain that the "fathers" of the faith (including Jesus Christ) were receiving their visions and hearing from God can't we?...your voice...there is no "we" certainty, just "me" certainty. I'm not even sure why you compared their experience in founding the church to yours unless you think it is a means to validate what you are going through. I guess you might also have compared the experiences to present the fact that even though they collaborated what He said, they all misunderstood what Jesus meant when He taught about them hell

you said: "Even though He did say to go and make disciples, those disciples, according to you, could not then receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit for themselves and be taught by that Spirit. They could only trust in men, and be taught by men."...point me to where I've said this, please.

you said: "They [the apostles] argued some, and did not accept Paul for some time either. In any case, there is inconsistency between what men teach now... (such as yours and other churches)... and what men taught then. How do you know what is being taught now (or by which group) is truth, unless you know and look to the Truth: Christ."...There is emphesis put on some doctrines over other doctrines depending on the denomination but the core dogma about who Jesus Christ is and what He only has done in His death, burial and resurrection has remained the same from the beginning...through the protestant reformation and until just recently when there has been a shift away from these core truths. These shifts have been undertaken in order to be more inclusive towards those who "don't believe" in that sort of thing...these denominations (corporate)are those who were once of the church but have now been made manifest that they (people) were not of the church.

you said: "Don't be silly. There is inconsistency in the bible; there is even inconsistency between what paul at first taught (regarding 'disfellowshippin/ex-communication) and what Christ taught. So even in the bible, everything should be tested against Christ and His teachings. Nothing will contradict him."...didn't Jesus Christ disfellowship/ex-communicate the pharisees from Himself, His disciples and the kingdom, Tammy?

you said: "Well, look at Cornelius... a gentile. "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a remembrance before God."...I suspect you will think that this is only because he believed IN God to begin with. But even Paul says that when gentiles do the things required of the law by nature, then they are a law unto themselves."...actually, yes, I do think that he believed in God to begin with and that is why his gifts were brought up as a rememberance before God. THAT is the essance of the law that Jesus spoke of...love God with all your heart, mind and body and the other is like it, love your neighbour as yourself. There is the necessity to believe in, acknowledge and LOVE God first!...that is why your "law of love" hasn't any basis in scripture.

When gentiles do by nature the things of the law they are a law unto themselves...the nature of the law is an eye for an eye...therefore, do unto others as you would have them do unto you...what has this got to do with people being forgiven solely on the basis of their apprehending the shed blood of Jesus Christ for their salvation?

you said: "And your church, Michelle, has not been internally consistent. It has not always followed Christ at all; but in fact has done things AGAINST Christ's teachings. But don't be blind about it."...(it's Jesus' church, my faith community). sure, that is because some people are inconsistant but the theology of the church isn't and that is what I've been saying...the theology of the historical/orthodox church from the time of the apostles to this very day is consistant with what Jesus Christ taught...all that He taught...not just the points that can make Him seem to be non-judgemental towards those who reject Him.

I've never been blind to the things that some who were called to be "shepherd's" have done, It serves no purpose to ignore reality or pretent horrible things didn't happen......on the contrary, I've mentioned them TO YOU specifically in a post within the last month or so.

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Christ Alone...

please don't fret. I think we all may have given consideration and commented on the OP...

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

you said: "So Moses was into spiritism? Paul? Peter? John? Christ, Himself? How many times in his revelation did John state that he heard a voice? Paul states that He learned from Christ, and this after Christ had already died and risen. Peter also."...in response to my statement: "wanting and listening for a voice or voices to speak to you is spiritism."...

NONE of these people were wanting and listening for a voice to respond...they were CONFRONTED with a voice and a vision. There are even others besides these people who were confronted and heard a voice accompanied with seeing something: mary M(angels at the tomb), ananias(re:paul acts 9:10) the transfiguration on the mt., JtB(the dove)...there is one example of saul using a witch as a mediator(spiritism)...and he didn't see anything, he just heard a voice.

but that fact aside...there is collaboration between every one of these people, there is internal consistancy in the message they teach AND they are the "fathers" of the faith!!!!

you said: "Weighing what anyone states against Christ... sure. Because Christ is the TRUTH, the anchor if you will, to test all else."...but you are weighing what you hear other people say against what you hear your lord say...so if you are listening to a deceiving spirit to begin with then obviously the scales will fall heaviest on the side of what you are hearing. in the bible there is collaboration and internal consistancy on the matters of hell, salvaton in Jesus Christ alone and by extention what/Who we will be judged by. we can see (and hear) this internal consistancy in the scriptures and we can weigh whatever any living person says by what we can see (and hear) written...that is the standard of truth not a voice that has NO collaborating evidence.

you said: "If it is against the Spirit of Truth (Christ) then yes, that is a deceiving spirit. And THAT is discernment of the spirits... testing what one hears; so as to know what is a true inspired expression and what is false: against Christ, the Spirit of Truth."...see my response above.

you said: "No, that is why one is to TEST the inspired expressions. Test anything you hear; test anything others tell you... and test them against Christ."...see my response above.

you said: "I reject the interpretation that has been applied[re: hell], due perhaps to the false pen of the scribes who thought they had the right understanding. But who perhaps did not look to CHRIST for discernment."...see my response above.

you said: "None that I can recall."...in response to my question: "have you read any of my posts about what and where hell is?"...then HOW can you make this remark?..."I don't hear his voice when you speak either (some things, when they stem from love, i can hear him in what you are saying)... but certainly I do not hear him when you speak of hell."

you asked for an example in your post #11205 on page 20 my response is ...every one of your "theories" I have ever debated or questioned you on was born out of the fact that there was no consistancy from one concept to another...Jesus Christ isn't holding your ideas together, they all seem to be held together by your "law of love" (But Christ might know some BY the love in them; even if they did not know Him"). to which I will post yet again: "Aside from the fact that your "law of love" seems to be able to replace the purpose of righteousness in Jesus Christ for salvation...there is no distinction made as to whether it is love borne of the Holy Spirit or love born of the fallen flesh. You see, the love that Jesus was talking about was love that is born in the believer of the Holy Spirit and flows upwards and outwards...if someone doesn't believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit then how can the love of God...that perfect uniting love born of the Holy Spirit be in him?...how can A&E "fallen love" save them?...I think that your "law of love" devalues the nature of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ which is inconsistant with the love of the Father towards Him."...

in luke14:23 the servant is told to *compel people to come to the Masters house...where is it stated that they will be brought into the house by the Master because of your "law of love" in their hearts?...and is your "law of love" consistant with the rest of the scriptures that collaborate the words of Jesus Christ in john 8:24?

love michelle

*compel (gr. #315 cf. #318)

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

wanting and listening for a voice or voices to speak to you is spiritism. listening to what real people say and weighing that against what Jesus, His apostles and the prophets have said in the scriptures is discernment of spirits...(as it is written, "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets": 1 cor 14:32, matthew 5:17, matthew 23:34, luke 16:29, romans 1:1-2, romans 3:21, ephesians 4:11) so if someone actually hears from an disembodied spirit and then teaches what they hear to others but that teaching is not in harmony with what Jesus or the scriptures say then that is a teaching of a deceiving spirit. one who hears from the disembodied could be deceived with no intention of deceiving others but that is WHY one shouldn't even want to listen for a voice or voices...because there are many disembodied spirits all to willing to deceive...they are in league with satan who goes about like a roaring lion seeking those he can devour.

If you don't hear Jesus in my voice when I talk about hell, does that mean that you reject all the accounts of hell spoken by Jesus in the bible as the false pen of the scribes?

btw...have you read any of my posts about what and where hell is?...if you could, please explain what you think I've said...

love michelle

p.s. I said your theology lacks internal consistancy...I never said anything about the Lord or people being inconsistant...when the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets the natural result is an internally consistant theology.

12

HOW to get Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth, etc.

by EndofMysteries in

okay i thought i'd make an official thread on this since it's being talked about a lot lately.

this is the truth taught in the bible about getting holy spirit and about if there are really human leaders or not.

i'll quote all from the nwt for the benefit for jw lurkers, the message is not lost and everyone can check their own translations.

myelaine

dear EndofMysteries...

you said: " Everything in the new testament also shows no human instructors, except for giving a foundation, but that anybody can get holy spirit."...

ok...Jesus was talking to His disciples who He had already instructed as to Who the "foundation" is...the disciples all had the CORRECT FOUNDATION which they could build on in their ministry to their congregations. The bible teaches that only those who are in union with the Father and the Son are given the Holy Spirit which will lead them into all truth...this is entirely different than "anybody can get holy spirit"...the Holy Spirit is only given to those who are in union with the Father and the Son...AND in order to be in union with the Father and the Son you have to have been taught who the Father and the Son are, that would be the CORRECT FOUNDATION.

Since you dismiss the fact that the catholic church IS the historic church that Jesus Christ started building upon and since you dismiss further building or "growth" in that historic church by way of the protestant reformation AND you dismiss the foundation that they are building on but instead go your own way in forming your own FOUNDATION...you very much are your own human instructor......I think that is why you are all over the map, EoM.

1 corinthians 3:11 declares that Jesus Christ is the correct foundation. So if you don't know who Jesus Christ the man IS then you don't have the correct foundation...even some who believed that He was the Messiah didn't have the correct foundation...and they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus (acts 8:16-17)...there is a foundational apostolic teaching in the command that Jesus gives to those who are to go into the world TEACHING and making disciples (matthew 28:19)

Now, if you start teaching yourself with your own FOUNDATION...why would you expect the Holy Spirit to lead you into all the other truth?

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

Jesus concluded, "Not my will Father but yours". So, though He may have been tempted to marry like other men He put off desires of the flesh being well aware of what was going to happen to Him and why.

He was sent to do the will of the Father, that is, to bring forth spiritual children into the kingdom. He is betrothed to the church and the children of the kingdom are born of the Holy Spirit. That was accomplished in His earthly ministry and still is the will of the Father.

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

I've been thinking about the things you say in order to better understand where your coming from. I have to say that as much as I understand your idea of love for loves sake or "the law of love" as you call it...it is a naive and childish (not childlike) theology. Yes, I know you don't like "theology" but anyone who tries to understand the relationship of God to man is practicing theology...that includes you.

perhaps it is because you don't like "theology" and are unwilling to look into the deeper things of God that what is your theology is severely lacking internal consistancy. the one you say is your lord seems to be inconsistant in his values in that for one person(AGuest) he makes it quite clear that his real name must be sanctified with the exclusion of all others but for another person(you) it isn't so important at all. His personality is inconsistant in that, though the Son makes it quite clear in the scriptures that He was sent to save...your lord has made it clear to you that anyone's righteousness is enough to save them...as long as they live "the law of love".

Aside from the fact that your "law of love" seems to be able to replace the purpose of righteousness in Jesus Christ for salvation...there is no distinction made as to whether it is love borne of the Holy Spirit or love born of the fallen flesh. You see, the love that Jesus was talking about was love that is born in the believer of the Holy Spirit and flows upwards and outwards...if someone doesn't believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit then how can the love of God...that perfect uniting love born of the Holy Spirit be in him?...how can A&E "fallen love" save them?

I think that your "law of love" devalues the nature of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ which is inconsistant with the love of the Father towards Him.

would you consider the possiblility that you might need to fine tune your law of love to better reflect the purpose of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit ?...or perhaps you would consider stating the truth about the fact that your law of love in no way amends or replaces the need for salvation in Jesus Christ alone. Can you be forthright about that without fear of sounding judgemental? at this point your theological construction implies that your interpretation of the law of love is enough.

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear NewChapter...

I don't know what will happen to her but she says she wont deny him OR that he talks to her...I was wondering if she was afraid of something happening or if anything at all would happen if she denied him.

love michelle

494

Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery.

gospel of jesus's wife is fake, claims expertscholar says papyrus fragment believed to provide evidence that jesus was married is a modern forgery.

karen king from harvard university holds the papyrus fragment that has four words written in coptic, which are believed to prove jesus was married.

myelaine

dear Tammy...

does the saying "My sheep hear My voice" have to mean hear an audible voice?...it can very well be an expression meaning, My sheep will know whether what other people speak is coming from My heart...(1 thess 1:1-9)

that is what discerning "spirits" is about...that is how I know that AGuest doesn't speak for the Son sent by the Father...I don't hear His voice when she speaks...

I also know that God wouldn't use the same means to speak to people as the demons must use. We are warned against listening to deceptive spirits. even a nice demon is a deceptive demon if he causes you to listen to him over a real live person. that's one reason why the canon was formed...we know that the Holy Spirit led real live people to testify about Jesus Christ and to live their life to glorify God in Jesus Christ(1 thess 1:1-9)...it wasn't just left up to anyone to hear a spirit and pass it on. there are too many spirits with many different voices who are all too willing to talk to humans.

btw...do you know what will happen to you if you deny your lord?...

love michelle