XJW4EVR

Joined

• started 180 topics
• posted 2,280 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by XJW4EVR

• 
  43

  Boring bookstudy book...which one was the worst?

  by White Dove in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i remember the old timers saying that the red babylon book was the hardest to understand.. in my memory, i'd have to say the isaiah books and daniel book were the most involved and boring.. the revelation book had gorgeous pictures in it (the writing was horribly boring), so i just looked at them, and i was 22 at the first study of it!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  Your question implies that there was an exciting book to "study," lol!
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  DD,

  You will have to excuse me. When I got home last night, I simply forgot that I needed to address this further. I believe that I may have misspoke on this one, so let me attempt to extricate my foot from my mouth. I do not believe in the rapture as it is commonly defined within evangelicalism. I believe that all humanity will be given a spiritual body and with that body they will either experience an eternity with God or eternit apart from Him. There for the rapture and resurrection have morphed into one event. I apologize if I was not clearer before.

  If you mean, "once saved always saved no matter what you do " then there is a problem.

  So, what's the problem? If someone is saved, they're not going to try to sin even more.

  The problem is that the Bible never teaches that grace gives us a license to sin. However, the Bible being written to be applied in the real world, tells that when we do sin we have an Advocate. We can try asll we want not to sin, but we still sin. Maybe not in deed (rarely), but primarily in word or thought.

  Also remember the context of that statement. Gaiagirl had made a statement about someone professing faith in Christ, and then robbing banks, or some such folderol, and invoking the above mentioned statement. The issue is not the momentary falling into sin that makes one's salvation unsure, but rather the continued practice of it. OSAS, is unbiblical, and not what was meant by the Reformed doctrine of the perserverance of the saints.
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  The body is in the ground, and decomposed after 2000 years.

  Let's say, for the moment that you are correct and the body was interred somewhere, what would have been the natural reaction of the Jewish religious leaders to the Apostles' message of a risen Messiah?

  The gospel accounts were not written for decades after the events they purport to describe, so there would have been no way to even go back and check the facts.

  OK, so you are saying that no one would be alive "decades" after the fact to either confirm or deny the events written in the Gospels?

  Assuming the gospels are correct just because they say so is "argument by authority", and doesn't hold up.

  How so? If I take this to its most logical conclusion then eyewitness testimony in any trial is "argument by authority." You have a faulty understanding of what the argument to authority is. It is saying that something is true because of the knowledge, authority, expertise or position of the person asserting an argument. The testimony of the Gospels are the accounts of direct eyewitnesses of the resurrection (Matthew and John) or the recorded testimony of eyewitness to the resurrected Christ (Mark-Peter & Paul, Luke-Paul and others).

  Jesus alwas said that His resurrection would be a confirmation of His claims. Throughout the Epistles, the resurrection is pointed to as evidence of His claims, and a foundation of the faith that came to be known as Christianity.

  Even IF the tomb was found empty, it does not logically follow that this means the body was taken to heaven. If someone comes home to find their car missing from the garage.....Does this mean God took it to heaven? Of course not. It more likely means that someone carted off the body. Jesus is often said to have done things "so the prophecy would be fulfilled". So why is it difficult to conceive that some of his followers might act similarly?

  Of course your nice bedtime story omits a very important parts of the internment of Jesus' body which would preclude this interpretation of the facts. First, the tomb was sealed with a Roman seal. To break that seal without the proper permission was to invoke the death penalty of crucifixion upside-down upon oneself. Second, the tomb was guarded by at least Roman soldiers. These soldiers were highly disciplined and would face tortuous and humiliating punishment if they fell asleep on duty. These are the same guards whom the Jewish religious leaders bribed and promised to handle their superiors in order to facilitate their cover-up of the resurrection. Third, you have the huge stone that was rolled in front of the tomb. How could anone move this stone without making enough noise to rouse the guards? Fourth, if the body was stolen, then how did the thieves have enough time to remove the body wrappings and carefully fold the face cloth? Fifth, based on their own testimony the followers were scared and in hiding.

  However, all the evidence in the world won't convince you unless you first deal with your preconception that miracles can't happen. I accept the miracle of the resurrection because it fits the facts we have recorded in the Gospels. In the Gospels, the fallacious argument of the disciples stealing the body is dealt with and refuted. Sadly, too many attempt to resurrect (no pun intended) this argument not realizing that it no longer has any legs to stand on.

  When faced with several possible explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest solution is usually correct. It is never necessary to invoke miracles.

  I agree. However, when every naturalistic explanation, that I am aware of, has been thoroughly refuted, then one must conclude that the resurrection was a miraculous act.
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  DD,

  I think your last statement answers the question. As I mentioned before, the Bible does not teach sinless perfectionism. In fact it teaches the opposite. Just look at the various first century church epistles. Paul was angry with the Corinthian church for allowing a sin that even the Gentiles did not permit to happen in their midst.

  Salvation is three-fold in its affect on humanity. First, we are saved from the penalty of sin. Next, we are saved from the power of sin. Lastly, we will be saved from the presencse of sin. The first was at regeneration, ie. the born again experience. The second is ongoing through the Holy Spirit's progressive sanctification of the believer. The last will happen at glorification.

  Chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession puts it,

  I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

  II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

  III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  1 Corinthians 3:10-15 & Matthew 25:31-33. This is off the top of my head. I do not have access to my notes at this time so a fuller explanation will have to wait. However the fifth point of the Apostles' Creed states:

  He ascended into heaven
  and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
  whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

  Personally, I think that the pre-tribulation rapture is nothing more than giving believer's a false sense of security about not being persecuted for their faith.
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  1) Give what you can, and only if you are SURE the money is being used for good cause.

  I wish I could use this line of logic when I pay taxes, lol. Seriously, I do not think that anyone can be SURE of this. I believe that a believer should perform due diligence before he/she gives anything. Beyond that, the Pastor and staff will be held accountable by a Higher Authority.

  2) Once saved, always saved? So if a person becomes saved, then begins a life of crime, they are still saved? Sorry, this belief is a logical fallacy.

  This is not only a logical fallacy, but is completely unbiblical, too. The New Testament is full of warnings to its readers about both doctrinal and moral apostasy. In fact, most of the men that Paul invested his life into, fell away. What the Bible does teach is perserverance of the saints. This belief is that while a true believer may fall into sin, he/she will never permanently remain in that condition. If a professed believer does this then they were never trully a Christian, as John states in 1 John.

  3) There will NEVER be a rapture. This is the born-again equivalent of the WTBTS carrot-on-a-stick "new system of things", a false hope to encourage people to obey the dictates of the church. Paul, Peter, and other first century Christians MAY have actually believed it would happen to them, however we KNOW that it did not, that they died just like the unbelievers of their time.

  That's a big catagorical denial. Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that the rapture was, up till the 1800s, the final resurrection of the dead for judgement.

  4) The tribulation was written about AFTER the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, expressing the hopes, by early Christians who still considered themselves as Jews, only with a Messiah, that they were STILL Gods chosen people. There will NEVER be a tribulation brought upon the Earth by a God who is defined as "Love". Blaming earthly problems on God is failing to take responsibility. Humans create problems, and are capable of solving them.

  What evidence do you have to back up for your first statement?

  Your second statement does not follow, because God is not just "LOVE". He is just and righteous also.

  No one is "failing to take responsibility" as you say. Perhaps the tribulation is a time period in which man gets himself in such a mess that he is unable to extricate himself from it, and God is forced to step in and make things right? This is not necessarily what I believe will happen, but I just wanted to posit a different point of view.

  5) Christ is dead, just like Moses, Buddah, Mohammed, Ghandi, and other noteworthy men. He is recorded as saying (although this may have been added by a later writer) he would return WHILE those first Christians were still alive. We know this did not happen. Another carrot-on-a-stick.

  Where's the body?

  Proof for your assertion of additions to the text please?

  Christ gave prophecies that indicated that His coming would NOT be during the lifetime of His disciples.

  More half-truths and baseless assertions.
• 
  24

  Born Agains:- What do you beileve?

  by LouBelle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a post on here about been being a born again christian.

  i must admit i don't know all the ins & outs of being one, but i did pop into a church and did a stint for 3 months before i left as their doctrine become clearer to me - i couldn't stay.. i'm not sure if these beliefs are held all around the earth by bas so clarification would be welcome:.

  1. paying tithe: i was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from god/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.. 2. once saved...always saved & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.. 3. the belief in the rapture.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  1. Paying tithe: I was told by the leaders of the church that this is a mandate from God/the bible and it plays a key roll in doing the will of the lord.

  There is NO mandate for the tithe to the Christian church. You should run from any Pastor that tells you this! The only mandate was to give according to two factors: your means, and the amount of gratitude you have for your salvation.

  2. Once saved...always saved

  If you mean, "once saved always saved no matter what you do" then there is a problem. The Bible does not teach that. It does teach that if you are trull saved then your salvation is eternal. After all did not Jesus promise His followers eternal life?

  & a constant laying your sins at the foot of the cross.

  I am not sure what this means. However, John tells believers that they are to confess their sins. As long as Christians are still in their mortal bodies they will be subject to temptation and sin. Being subject to these often means we fall into sin, and if we confess these sins to God, He is merciful to forgive us.

  Now I would like to point out that there are sins consistent with the Christian life and sins inconsistent with the Christian life. Stealing would be inconsistent with Christian life, and a professed believer caught in this habitually would be subject to church discipline, up to and including excommunication.

  3. The belief in the rapture

  Usually this term refers to a pre-tribulation catching-up to heaven of believers alive at this time. This is NOT an essential for salvation. In fact, it is something that is recent in Christian history, namely around the 1830s. Historically, the rapture has refered to the resurrection of believers and non-believers.

  5. That christ will then literally come back to earth and set up his kingdom in Jerusalem.

  Sounds like you were in a dispensational church. Dispensationalism is on of two major theologies inevangelicalism. Wikipedia has a fairly accurate description of dispensationalism. From there you can link to Covenant theology, which is the other major theological school.
• 
  108

  Any "Born Again" Christians here?

  by sacolton in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  would like to see how many have accepted jesus christ as the only way, truth and life..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  Does becoming a born again christian automatically mean a person now believes the gift of tongues given at Pentecost are just the languages of angels and not the local jews speaking in different earthly languages?(Acts ch2)

  Pentecostal poppycock! There are many Christians that either do not believe that speaking in tongues is for today, or that believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit (as opposed to the baptism by the Holy Spirit) is not evidenced by speaking in tongues.

  I point out my post is not being cynical ,I just would like to know as while I was a JW the Born agains I met at the homes all seemed to believe in tongues just being a gift in angelic language. Has this changed?

  This is more Pentecostalism. The languages spoken in Acts 2 were actual languages as noted by the hearers response. The "angelic language" of the modern-day Pantecostal is nothing more than the repetition of gibberish. I am a former Pentecostal, fwiw.
• 
  108

  Any "Born Again" Christians here?

  by sacolton in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  would like to see how many have accepted jesus christ as the only way, truth and life..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  My opinion is no, you don't have to be a trinitarian to become born again. I didn't believe in the trinity at the time I had my spiritual rebirth, in fact, it took me about 3 years before I actually believed the trinity doctrine.

  Cynthia

  I would tend to agree on the Trinity. However, Romans 10:9-10 says, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Therefore, Paul is stating that one MUST believe that Jesus is YWWH and that He rode from the dead. Hebrews 11:6 says, "Now without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who diligently search for him." Now we have a third requirement, that is belief that God exists. This is Christianity reduced to its irreduceable minimum.
• 
  108

  Any "Born Again" Christians here?

  by sacolton in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  would like to see how many have accepted jesus christ as the only way, truth and life..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  XJW4EVR

  Jaguarbass...I want to thank you for once again proving the Bible true.

  Romans 1:22

  1 Cor. 1:18.