Posts by AlmostAtheist

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

Despite Ozzie's point, this discussion is interesting to me. I like having my viewpoints challenged.

>>Let me clarify, why cheapen the sacrifice of people you love? ... He was gung-ho about going to Afghanistan after 9/11 and then to Iraq when his division was redeployed. ... when he died I did not try and cheapen his sacrifice by suggesting to anyone that he died needless or for a "cause that isnt real."

Some people picket the funerals of dead soldiers. Have you ever seen an ex-JW picketing the funeral of a dead JW over the blood issue? (And if you have -- and I wouldn't put it past some -- I'm sure you'd agree it's a ridiculously small minority)

It's one thing to look a particular soldier's parents in the eye and say, "Your son died for nothing" and an entirely different thing to debate the merits of the war in an open forum. Without such debate, we'd all be mindless drones, doing whatever the gov't told us to. (Unlike now, when we... well, anyway....)

Again though, JWD isn't about hating the Watchtower. Yes, there are several threads right now about the pedophile issue. But that's because there's the news story about it. Strike when the iron's hot and all that. But statistically, that is not what JWD is about.

It's about supporting people, not tearing down an organization.

Dave

7

One of those infamous JW e-mails

by Zico in

jw
friends

just received this on a jw e-mail list, hadn't seen it on here before, so thought i'd share it, though it probably has been posted!

not sure what 'truth' has to do with selflessness!.

subject: 7%.

AlmostAtheist

Yet another "church" email that some JW stole, changed "Lord" to "Jehovah" and forwarded on. Funny, they wouldn't dare set foot in a church, despite the crap spewing from the pulpit sounding remarkably like that spewing from the KH podium. But they somehow manage to pick up these bits of tripe, smear a little "Jehovah" basting on them, and serve them up at Jehovah's table.

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

James, you're a reasoned, balanced poster. You're very pleasant to discuss things with.

>>People have died for things they believed in since the beginning of time. It could be a political cause, ethical, moral, family, etc. When someone dies for something they believe in what makes it your right to cheapen their sacrifice by suggesting it was a stupid sacrifice. Why not celebrate their sacrifice, even if you dont believe in the cause, as a way of respecting that person and their convictions?

Hmmmm... Firstly, I don't celebrate anyone sacrificing their life without knowing why. The 9/11 hijackers (and for the sake of argument, let us assume they really existed and were hijackers) sacrificed their lives for a cause. I don't think it was a worthwhile cause, and I don't celebrate it. That's a sensational example, I admit, but the point is the same. The cause has to be worthy TO ME in order for me to celebrate it.

Secondly, the cause should be real. The Bible really doesn't forbid blood transfusions. It just doesn't. The JW's say it does, but it doesn't. So the "cause" isn't real. These people are dying for nothing -- not a cause. They aren't fighting oppression, or freeing slaves, or doing anything at all, except perhaps strengthening the resolve of other JW's to do the same thing if it ever happens to them.

>>How can dwelling on the hate be fulfilling? I think its like eating lots of twinkies. In the immediate it may feel good, but in the long run its just going to make you feel worse because of all the weight gain.

This would be an example of taking it to an extreme. A person can do the same thing for any cause. If I do nothing all day but make and distribute pink ribbons in an effort to raise breast cancer awareness, to the neglect of my family, my job, my friends -- then I am damaging myself. But if I dedicate a weekend a month to it, is that over doing it?

Moreover, stating that something is bad is not quite the same as "dwelling on the hate", is it? On JWD we discuss ways to approach a currently-believing spouse. We share tips on getting through mind-numbing meetings for those that still have to attend. We support people that are feeling alone because of being disfellowshipped. And we even help people that have never developed proper social skills because as JW's they didn't need to. We discuss ancillary topics -- religion in general, the Bible, cults, god, atheism, evolution, Intelligent Design. And then completely off the wall topics -- beer, movies, sex.

Most of this is done out of love and appreciation for fellow humans, not out of hate for the Watchtower.

>>"Crisis of Conscience"? No, tonight is the first I've heard of it.

If you've been a JW, it's worth reading. Skip the first chapter, but the rest is quite gripping. It will mean less if you weren't a live-to-please-Jehovah type of JW. But it will still be valuable.

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

>>Nearly 25K American soldiers have been maimed or killed in the past 6 years. Do you spend equal amounts of time slamming the Republican party?

Yep. :-) Check out the "Politics" section.

>>Honestly this is the most bizarre thing Ive read all night. You dont believe that fornication, smoking and idolatry are personal decisions? You honestly believe that having sex with someone or smoking a cigarette is beyond your control? Huh?

:-) No, obviously these things ARE personal decisions. Or rather, they SHOULD be. But for a JW, they aren't. Were you REALLY a baptized, meeting-attending, door-to-door-ministry Jehovah's Witness?

>>So if they are so brain washed that they are beyond reason what makes you think anything you say here will effect any change? If they are as mindless as you believe, it wont.

Well, you've kind of hit upon the dilemma. You're right. There's little that can said to "wake them up". It sounds as if you may have spent some time on political boards, and perhaps discussed how the "sheeple" just "baaa, baaa" whenever Bush or one of his crew says something. You may have asked, "Why don't people GET it? How can they be so BLIND?" It's the same deal with JW's. Except instead of American Exceptionalism, their cult is called "Watchtower". And instead of "My Country, right or wrong", it's "My God, right or wrong".

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

>>In 18 years this is my first experience with a group of people who's entire focus in developing a community was to slam the Witnesses.

Perhaps you haven't looked around very much? We do much more than "slam the witnesses". There is plenty of slamming, don't get me wrong. But there's more to be had here than just that.

Sometimes you'll hear people talk about going from "ex-JW's" to "ex-ex-JW's". They mean they've moved from a point where they no longer viewed the Watchtower as the all-good "mother organization", to a point where they viewed the Watchtower as wholly irrelevant. Or didn't view it at all.

Needless to say, the people you see regularly posting would be a set that self-select as "ex-JW's".

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

Firstly, let me acknowledge what you said about deaths from the blood issue, versus deaths from ignorant people refusing to wear seatbelts. Well said, you're right. In terms of numbers, the loss of life from the blood issue is surely less than some other "cause" one could take up.

>>Blood transfusion does not fall into the extreme severity category (in terms of breaking the rule) and simply acknowledging that you were scared and gave in to a transfusion would qualify you as remorseful.

I've only been out of the Watchtower for three years. But having discussed issues with many ex-JW's, it seems that JW's break into segments. There are the ones that are only in it for appearances. They watch r-rated movies when no one is watching, and would probably take a blood transfusion, knowing they could "repent" later. But there is another segment (in my experience, large, if not the majority) that truly want to "please Jehovah". It isn't about "rules", it's about pleasing their heavenly father. Except they let the Watchtower tell them what's pleasing and what isn't. He hates "misuse" of blood, so they don't "misuse" it and choose to die instead. What will or won't "get you disfellowshipped" is irrelevant.

I must admit that there's another issue here. We've all been personally affected by the Watchtower. Some of us (not me) have lost loved ones to the blood issue, to suicide brought on by the effects of the cult, and were in other ways severely affected by it.

Just like a person who's been affected by cancer may take up a cancer cause, so many of us have taken up an anti-Watchtower cause. Statistically, it may not be the most efficient use of our time. But emotionally -- humanly -- it's fulfilling.

Can it be taken too far? Yep. But barring the extremes, I don't see anything wrong with a person investing some of themselves in efforts to prevent the organization that damaged them from damaging others.

Question for you: Have you read "Crisis of Conscience"?

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

>>[blood issue] But at the end of the day its still a personal decision.

You can't seriously believe that. It's as much a "personal decision" as fornication, smoking, and idolatry is. JW's are told they will displease Jehovah -- put their eternal lives at risk -- over this issue. It is not in any way a "personal decision".

I'm glad you've broken free from cult thinking. For you, everything is a personal decision, as well it should be. But for them, it's absolutely nothing of the sort. For the mindless drones of the bOrg, it is an order from God Almighty, and they ignore it at their eternal peril.

Dave

79

I dont understand the hate...

by JamesWind in

jw
friends

i grew up as a jehovah's witness.

my mother was uneducated and so we moved every 2-4 years as she tried to find stable enough work to support a child so ive attended many kingdom halls and have known many witnesses and many elders.

i've never gone back to the witness organization and never will.

AlmostAtheist

>>the mix is probably 99.99 to .01 in favor of those good and decent people. And yet, the people on this board would have you believe the number is skewed in the opposite direction. I call bullsheit.

Most people I've seen discussing JW's and expressing disdain for them were speaking of the organization itself, the culture it imposes on its members, the problems it causes through the members. The "hate" you speak of is rarely directed at individual JW's.

I agree with you, though, that our energy is more wisely spent on making the world a better place in general, than by trying to damage a tiny little cult. The current pedo-problems being in the news is a little too valuable a weapon not to wield it at the moment, but I would generally agree with you.

Dave

46

Hi all, I am new, found a JW

by -Tank in

meet her, and we all go out and have fun it was a great time, and .

went on, we talked more, and more...and more....and more, and .

family issues back home, so she and her friends did not get to see .

AlmostAtheist

>But of course, once, AGAIN, she says "I can't do this anymore" alot was said but she said, I do not want to hurt you, please believe I do love you, without a doubt, please no not doubt my love for you, that is pure. She also said that she wants to be with me too, but everything hinges on me being a witness or not, and that all the signs point to no. She said she cannot go through this again, it hurts us both to much.

Her God is on one side, and you're on the other. You can't win.

I'm sorry, my friend, but it's time for you to move on. At best, you'll have these on-again/off-again periods with her. She'll weaken and allow herself to be close to you, then she'll go back to "I can't do this anymore". The religion of a JW is so important, so demanding, they can't be partially in and partially out. It just doesn't work that way.

I hope you don't think I'm minimizing your situation. I'm not. I'm sorry you're hurting, and I'm sorry *she's* hurting. But it's not going to change unless she stops being a JW. And you don't want to live your life waiting for someone to leave a cult. It just doesn't happen often enough to bet on it.

Dave

29

funny thing about being sad...especially now of all times w/ snow & NBC

by oompa in

jw
friends

i have to get feeing better soon.

i don't mind some ups and downs, but staying low for days at a time just ain't right.

somebody here was talking about snow the other day and how the elders would almost never cancel the meeting.

AlmostAtheist

Hey Oompa,

You've been thru one of the most serious changes in life you can experience -- you've changed your entire world view. A short time ago you were among "the elite", the "great crowd" that alone would survive the apocalypse that was "right around the corner". As a JW, you learned not to plan ahead and think only about the moment, since that's all that mattered. You're never going to retire in this system -- why plan?

Alot of the changes you'll go thru as you fully exit cult thinking are not quite as obvious as simply not attending meetings anymore. This "not planning ahead" stuff is one of them.

Give yourself some time. I know -- I mean I REALLY know -- that it isn't easy to wait for a better day. You feel bad NOW and you feel like you need to do something NOW. But you need to wait.

As a JW, none of our decisions were permanent. No matter how badly we screwed up, the New System was always out there just a few years away and it was going to fix all of it. But out here in the real world, we really can screw things up and they really won't get fixed.

Before you make a life-screwing-up decision, give yourself time to get your head around it all.

If you need to go to the doctor and get some meds to help you through this, just go ahead and do it. That's a great idea, in fact.

When I was 15, I wrote in my journal, "Never make a life-changing decision when you're happy, sad, tired or drunk". If I'd followed my own advice, I can only imagine how different my life would be right now. Please take that advice.

Dave