Posts by AlmostAtheist

23

Some people followed Jehovah's Organization, and God killed 'em

by AlmostAtheist in

gina and i were batting around how the organization calls itself "god's channel" out of one side of their mouth and then reminds everyone that they are "imperfect men" out of the other.

this allows them to claim a position of authority as "god's organization" while at the same time allowing them to make mistakes and get away with it.

(1975, "generation", all the flavors of blood, etc).

AlmostAtheist

Don't get me wrong, U/D, this isn't a "God's unfair" thread. It's a "Personal responsibility is what counts to God, not obedience to any organization" thread. The point is not that God was unfair in who he punished, but that the people who disobeyed God's organization (Aaron) and refused to participate in calf worship were the ones favored by God after the event.

It's meant to make a point to JW's that blindly obeying the organization isn't such a great or blessed idea.

Why Aaron got away with his involvement in the affair is not relevant to the thread.

Dave

12

can my dad see what internet sites I have been to?

by filip in

jw
friends

im aware that all pages are saved in this special folder, but i just delete it every time i have been on this site.

my question is, can my dad get a list from the internet company, that contains all the internet sites that have been visited for example the last month?

AlmostAtheist

Assuming your dad is paying the ISP bill, I doubt he would have any trouble getting information about your activity from the ISP. From their perspective, it's *his* activity. Of course, it wouldn't be common to ask for that info, so it might not be as easy as a phone call.

For added protection, you could use a different web browser like Firefox or Opera. (People typically think of the Internet Explorer locations for history information) And use an anonymizer site as well.

Dave

83

To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

this isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread.

i enter with an informed but open mind.

AlmostAtheist

final count ever get resolved?

I thought it was, but then I started getting all these "mail-in" votes! And I thought internet voting would make this easier!

Why ? ... you believe or not ? if you do not believe there must be a reason (that's what you have check ... NO ?)

This thread started because of a discussion with a person very close to me that became tremendously bothered by my unwillingness to believe in a god. I was accused of not listening to the arguments, explaining them away, wanting "not" to believe. So I wanted to give it the best shot it could get. I know many of you are believers, and moreover, you're a diverse group of believers. So I thought if there was any chance that somebody would strike a chord with me, it would be one of you.

The impression I'm left with is that for the most part, the people that "found" God actually say they were found by him. Searching didn't help, at least not for the majority. So I'm basically dropping the idea until God reveals himself to me. There's no way to prove that he doesn't exist, so I won't bother trying. And it seems impossible to prove (to me) that he does exist, so again no point in bothering there. Like the Magic-Eye pictures, I'll just think about something else and see what happens. (I'm reminded of the time I stared cross-eyed at some random pattern, only to realize that it was not meant to be a magic eye picture. I was trying so hard to see what I thought was there, but it simply wasn't there to be seen.)

BTW, I think an atheist is a person that doesn't believe in a god, not one that believes there is no god. It is an absence of belief, not a belief. So I think at this point I qualify as an atheist. (Don't I get a card, or something?)

Let me say again, thank you all for your heartfelt, helpful, informative responses.

Dave

13

New unofficial JW web site opportunity?

by IT Support in

jw
friends

i've been mulling over kenneson's recent thread:

unofffical jehovah's witness website censured

might this just be the biggest 'own goal' the wt has ever made?

AlmostAtheist

I think it's an interesting idea, but I do have some reservations. Wouldn't you be opening yourself up to lawsuits from the Watchtower? They have a boatload of free lawyers that would just love to soak up all your funds, even if they ultimately lose. Would it be worth the risk?

If you were found out, and you almost surely would be, wouldn't it confirm in the Dub's minds that apostates are liars and deceivers? It could backfire. Of course, they already believe that and will find all the evidence they need to believe it already, so maybe that's not a significant point.

If you do it, you can probably save yourself some time by using some prebuilt software. Some forum software like phpBB or PHPnuke would allow you to concentrate on content instead of development.

26

"Replacement doctrines" - things which JWs lie about to the interested ones

by Pole in

depending on the denomination of their interlocutor the witnesses often claim that their religion is free of a whole bunch of non-sensical doctrines which are so common in other religions.

oftentimes, however, it proves that they have something that i'll call "replacement doctines" - beliefs which which are difficult to figure out for the 'interested ones', but which in the long run prove to be just as bad as the stuff they disclaimed or worse.

example: in a catholic country like poland, jws often boast about the fact that they don't have the confession routine, where a person has his/her sins forgiven by a priest who acts as a representative of god.

AlmostAtheist

Are demons residing in objects part of official teaching?

From a post by Blondie:

w66 12/15 pp. 739-744 Repelling the Attack of Wicked Spirits

Yet others unknowingly move into a house long haunted by demons and then, when they come under attack, instead of moving out, they try to defy the demons on their "home ground" or even dare them in some way or other, bringing trouble upon themselves.

It is very frequently found that one who is having difficulty with the demons has a relative or acquaintance engaged in spiritism. Further investigation usually reveals that such a one has received a gift from the one who is under influence by the demons. Soon after the object or article was brought into one?s house, trouble followed. Sometimes, after a spiritist dies, a surviving relative unwisely takes the household effects of the spiritist into his own home, with tragic consequences. False religious pictures and symbols have also been implicated.

33

Questions to ask Ray Franz?

by Released in

jw
friends

sunday the 17th iwill be meeting him for the fist time.

i would like some feedback as to any questions you all may have(i have a bunch of my own) of which i will post next sunday night.

please keep them as short as possible so i,m not carrying a whole book when i go.

AlmostAtheist

Starting to sound like idol worship...!!!

many ex-Witnesses tend to go a little Ray-overboard

So true, and I don't agree with Ray at all on his religious views. But my praise for him comes from the fact that he took his time to write his views on the organization and suffer the difficulties and expense of getting it published. There have been a few ex-JW's that wrote books, but he's the one in a unique position to reveal the inner-workings that show the Watchtower to be nothing more than a publishing company.

I have to guess that it is somewhat embarrassing to be Ray. Letters pouring in about how great he is, how much he's appreciated. "Hard to be humble", I would guess.

Nevertheless, he deserves credit where credit is due.

Yep, agreed.

26

"Replacement doctrines" - things which JWs lie about to the interested ones

by Pole in

depending on the denomination of their interlocutor the witnesses often claim that their religion is free of a whole bunch of non-sensical doctrines which are so common in other religions.

oftentimes, however, it proves that they have something that i'll call "replacement doctines" - beliefs which which are difficult to figure out for the 'interested ones', but which in the long run prove to be just as bad as the stuff they disclaimed or worse.

example: in a catholic country like poland, jws often boast about the fact that they don't have the confession routine, where a person has his/her sins forgiven by a priest who acts as a representative of god.

AlmostAtheist

'If you're experiencing difficulties in your life -- bad dreams, hearing voices, etc -- you should carefully check your home for articles obtained from questionable sources. Yard sales, flea markets, even worldly relatives can be sources of objects to which demons have attached themselves. Remove these articles from your home. [insert quote from some nutjob that burned the Superman #1 issue purchased at a flea market, then never had a problem with their microwave again.]'

No, no, they're not superstitious at all...

"The churches teach their members about Hellfire to scare them into staying in church. We on the other hand merely point out the fact that God will *so* destroy you and those you love if you fail to come to our meetings, go out in service, read our literature, ..."

They don't have to scare their people. JW's enjoy the 'freedom of the sons of God'.

Dave

23

Some people followed Jehovah's Organization, and God killed 'em

by AlmostAtheist in

gina and i were batting around how the organization calls itself "god's channel" out of one side of their mouth and then reminds everyone that they are "imperfect men" out of the other.

this allows them to claim a position of authority as "god's organization" while at the same time allowing them to make mistakes and get away with it.

(1975, "generation", all the flavors of blood, etc).

AlmostAtheist

Well it was the nagging of the people that made Aaron cave in

So... if we all wrote into the Watchtower and demanded to be able to commit fornication, they'd eventually cave in and let us do it? Even sanction it? Set up a time and a place for it? Call it a "festival to Jehovah"?

No, surely not. The GB is probably much stronger than Aaron was.

Imagine Israel at the time. Not ALL the Israelites were pro-golden-calf. But when Aaron built one, built an altar, called for a festival to it, wouldn't you imagine that some that had not previously wanted the calf now accepted it? Imagine what was on their mind as they saw their brother's sword coming at them and caught sight of Aaron -- alive and well. "Curse you, Aaron! I trusted you!!"

(The fact that Aaron got away with it has been addressed by the Watchtower at some point, I remember reading it. I also remember -- even as a Dub -- thinking the explanation was very weak.)

Dave

33

Questions to ask Ray Franz?

by Released in

jw
friends

sunday the 17th iwill be meeting him for the fist time.

i would like some feedback as to any questions you all may have(i have a bunch of my own) of which i will post next sunday night.

please keep them as short as possible so i,m not carrying a whole book when i go.

AlmostAtheist

Yeah, count Gina and I in that "hooray for Ray" group. We bought CoC and Christian Freedom. Please let him know how much we appreciate his taking the time to write his books. A genuinely good and appreciated person.

Dave

23

Some people followed Jehovah's Organization, and God killed 'em

by AlmostAtheist in

gina and i were batting around how the organization calls itself "god's channel" out of one side of their mouth and then reminds everyone that they are "imperfect men" out of the other.

this allows them to claim a position of authority as "god's organization" while at the same time allowing them to make mistakes and get away with it.

(1975, "generation", all the flavors of blood, etc).

AlmostAtheist

Gina and I were batting around how the organization calls itself "God's Channel" out of one side of their mouth and then reminds everyone that they are "imperfect men" out of the other. This allows them to claim a position of authority as "God's Organization" while at the same time allowing them to make mistakes and get away with it. (1975, "generation", all the flavors of blood, etc)

Exodus 32 describes the golden calf incident. Aaron built the calf, erected the altar, and called for a worship service at a specific time and place. Aaron -- in Moses' abscence -- was the "visible organization" of that time. So "God's organization" of that time called for something that God himself would not approve of. Would the people that obeyed the organization be acceptable to God, even though they were doing what was wrong? What was important, following the "right" course, or following the direction of God's visible organization?

You know how this turned out. The people were punished with sword and plague for "their" sin, when in fact they were only following the direction of the organization. (Never mind for the moment, that Aaron got a free ride on this one. [Maybe he had a Get Out of Hell Free card?])

So what of today? Wouldn't God hold people responsible for doing something wrong, even if God's organization said it was right? I'm thinking here of the blood issue, allowing God's servants to die at the direction of the organization, when the "right" thing to do would be to preserve life.

This is an academic point, of course. Dubs aren't going to change their view of the "Slave Class", and we'll still get DF'd for holding our "apostate" views. But just for discussion's sake, what do you think?

Dave