Posts by euripides

13

Juxtaposition and Bible understanding

by Narkissos in

the "genealogy" thread made me think about the following: .

one of the big problems in reading the bible comes from its practice of simply juxtaposing different stories apparently relating to the same "events": the two creation accounts in the first pages of genesis, the flood narratives (although there is some redactional weaving there), samuel-kings // chronicles, and of course the four gospels.

our theoretic (=> spatially-structured) mind tends to put the stories side by side (synopsis) to compare them: whether we use the comparison to criticise or to harmonise, we actually build a third (or fourth, or fifth) story of "what really happened" (even if it is close to nothing) and then look back to see how the alternate narratives developed from it.

euripides

Narkissos,

You make a point frequently understood in ancient mythology: that there are sometimes divergent alternative versions of stories which the listener/reader is expected to hold in place without a problem: consider the Library of Apollodorus, where often it will be written, "so-and-so said this happened, but another wrote that this happened (to Achilles, Helen, Heracles, etc.)" Which version is correct? How can they be placed adjacent to each other and still all held as credible? Apparently the Talmudic commentaries entertained the same device: where there were stories with hiatus or seemingly incomprehensible details, additional possibilities were supplied by way of explanation. We recently considered the one about altering the ultimate destiny of Jephthah's daughter, and it was Rabbi Chimchi c. 1200 CE who proposed that it was temple duty and not sacirifce which was her end. I recall reading the story that in fact Abraham did sacrifice Isaac, but that he was immediately resurrected, or, alternately, that the name of the sheep sacrificed was in fact Isaac.

The proposed idea behind the maintenance of competing stories in the text notwithstanding apparent divergence and purported contradiction emphasizes the primacy of the text, that no part of the sacred account be lost, even if they, taken alongside each other, don't seem to agree. Joshua 1-12 seems to suggest a complete takeover of the land, but Joshua 13 has Yahweh rattling off all the places which remain to be conquered. Evidently these come from competing traditions of the infiltration of Canaan (which is all fiction, I agree) but it remains that both versions stand in the text right next to each other.

One of the strange things that happens to so many when reading the Biblical texts is that critical analysis goes right out the door, as if its wrong to challenge the text to make sense and be coherent. Accuracy probably wasn't the biggest deal in the world (but it is sure is to WT ironically, now isn't it?) in ancient times, so much as interactive responses to multivalent approaches.

Euripides

8

The Cross

by libra_spirit in

i hope you wonderfull people can help me out here.. i have a friend, now exjw, doing research on the cross.

i remember reading some excellent stuff on this site a few years back on this.

i can't seem to locate the older posts about the cross research.

euripides

The best written work on this topic is Martin Hengel's Crucifixion in the Ancient World.

Here's an interesting online essay:

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

Euripides

15

Literary structure/ chiasms

by peacefulpete in

being very new to this type of inquiry i'd appreciate any inpute to refute or confirm the idea of mark's literary style including chiasms.

the word simply means 'intersection'.

in this case it is argued that mark like other literature of the day used a unique pattern of thought and structure that grouped sections into rounded out blocks where the end half mirrors or opposes the beginning half .

euripides

Perhaps you have noted this short undergraduate essay:

http://www2.andrews.edu/~rickyr/ntc00.html

As far as chiastic structure goes, I'm not sure how illuminating it is overall. Obviously it's a common stylistic device pervasive in both Hebrew and Greek. Much has been made of Mark's overall encompassing structure, and I think there is merit in such analyses (ch. 8 as a pivotal turning point, the three separate reminders of the Son of Man's imminent death in chapters 8, 9 and 10, etc.). I agree that, for example, the "superchiasm" analysis of the Flood Story is forced to fit parallels where they may or may not be. There is no doubt the final redactor of Mark has structure in mind more than once throughout the text, but the incidence of this particular device carries minimal implication, in my view.

Euripides

11

taste death

by peacefulpete in

we are familiar with the expression in mark 9:1 that some standing there "would not taste death at all" and it seems clear that the original hand of mark intended it to be a message of imminent return of christ.

later the line was reinterpreted as a vision of jesus in the so called trasfiguration.

my interest now is in the phrase "taste death" and how it was used by the gospel thomas.

euripides

peacefulpete--

Re: reading on Son of Man expressions in Mark, the seminal work in this field is by Morna Hooker: here is a link to where you can purchase her book on this subject, (its also available through interlibrary loan in almost any university library)--I still think this is the best work on the topic, although its almost 40 years old.

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03Y6649566Y4680922/qid%3D1109533023/102-8211018-3425706

I know you were looking to online resources, so here's a link to Robert Price's essay on "incredible shrinking Son of Man"

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/BkrvSonofMan.htm#SonOfMan

That's a start anyway.

Euripides

11

taste death

by peacefulpete in

we are familiar with the expression in mark 9:1 that some standing there "would not taste death at all" and it seems clear that the original hand of mark intended it to be a message of imminent return of christ.

later the line was reinterpreted as a vision of jesus in the so called trasfiguration.

my interest now is in the phrase "taste death" and how it was used by the gospel thomas.

euripides

Putting aside the eschatological (or not) connotations, I did some further research on the idiom itself:

Linguistically "to taste death" (also Hebrews 2:9) seems to be mostly a Semitic metaphor: it occurs quite often in rabbinical literature; one example roughly contemporary to the NT would be 4 Ezra 6:26, "the translated men who have not tasted death".
It is most probably related to other positive uses of "to taste" (Hebrews 6:4f, which closely parallels the rabbinical "taste of the world to come"; possibly 1 Peter 2:3).

It obviously works as a Semitic metaphor--I was unaware of its pervasive use in rabbinical literature. The expression geuomai thanatou in Greek has a precedent, however, in Leonidas, a third century BCE epigrammatician/poet, as well as in Greek inscriptions. This is clearly analogous to the Hebrew expression ta'am mi'tah (or however you want to transliterate it), and the verb ta'am (taste) does appear in other metaphors, such as Psalm 34:9 and Proverbs 31:18.

The idea behind the use of this word taste obviously connotes experience in some way, such as taste of knowledge or taste of YHWH.

Earlier scholars and commentators such as Chrysostom, Alcuin, Aquinas, and Luther in Lectures 131 believed that the expression might mean that Jesus "tasted death" in a sampling way, as a physician might taste bitter medicine in order to convince those who are sick to taste it. The expression "bitterness of death," i.e. something susceptible to taste, appears in 1 Samuel 15:32 and Sirach 41:1. I think you've already remarked on "seeing death in Heb. 11:5.

I think most theologians read the expression to mean "experience fully," as in participate in. It's interesting that the expression occurs once in each gospel, suggesting that there may have been a tradition, as Leolaia points out, in a Son of Man expression concerning the same, thereby suggesting its connection to the oral tradition of Thomas.

I would thus conclude that since the expression works in both Hebrew and Greek that it was diffuse enough of an expression in a poetic sense as to be no longer traceable to a particular hermeneutic. That may be unhelpful, but its the best I can do

Euripides

21

Is there a name for this kind of JW tactic?

by ithinkisee in

is there an actual psychological term or whatever for this kind of jw tactic?.

the tactic is where they head the opposing arguments off at the pass, like when a new person studies and they get to the point where they want to make a stand for "the truth".

the person studying with them will tell them to "expect opposition from your family, this is satan trying to get at you because now you have found the truth and he's mad.".

euripides

The term you are looking for is Procatalepsis. This was a rhetorical device known by the ancients (and discussed by Aristotle I believe). A basic definition is simply anticipating one's opponent's objections in an argument. I see the JW strategy as a crafty counter-objection implant: if someone challenges you, this should prove we are correct. But it fails logically, because its contrapositive is silly: If we are proven incorrect, then no one will have challenged you.

Euripides

14

The Literature Counter

by the_classicist in

at your congregation did it ever seem that the literature counter had nothing in stock except for a lot of the basics (armageddon revelation book, evolution book, brochures, cheap nwts, and what's being studied).

what made me think of this was someone saying posting about how the elders wait until the last minute to hand out the kms.

do you think they do the same kind of thing with the literature?.

euripides

It's really all at the discretion of the literature servant, as long as their isn't an astonishing backlog of stuff not moving. In my experience, the brothers and sisters were usually excited to see some unusual titles, and I prided myself on ordering as many "esoteric" literature items as I could, like the Tanakh Bible, Greek interlinear, brochures for Moslems and Hindus, you name it. In my hall there were four congregations sharing the same hall, and I secretly prided myself on being the absolute completist library out there. Yes, you'd look behind those glass doors of the other congregatinos literature stock and it was total lame-o compared to mine.Kept foreign language titles of a few things also where I thought I might move them. In fact, I seem to recall that sometimes the literature servant from another cong would sometimes hang out and wait for me when I came in to buy one of the more unusual titles from me! This is a pretty pathetic claim to fame, but I was trying to be earnest in keeping a well stocked library.

Euripides, former literature servant

36

BSOs on the Daniel book

by IP_SEC in

so here comes patdp very soon.

it's not as bad as ipalfatn i & ii, but still its based on the idea of 607 and 1914.. how have any of you ex or current book study overseers handled this problem.

i'd like not to conduct but thats not really an option.

euripides

I know my situation, and for me to give up the BS right now would cause me to be forced in to confronting the other men with my problem. Which would end up in my being removed from the congo and shunned by nearly everyone I know, probably including my own wife as well.

But IPSec, Jehovah knows.

Seriously, I (and countless others like me) know what its like. There will come a day when you can no longer lead a double life of the mind. I don't think it's cowardly either, you're just holding on to the only thing you've known. But, when that happens, when you dare to be free, of course its painful, but it may be the only way to grow as an individual. Then again, many I know I'm sure traded in their freedom of thought for a "lead role in the cage."

God bless you, IPSec, you must be going through sheer hell.

Euripides

5

The madness of King Nebuchadnezzar

by euripides in

daniel chapter 4 recounts the story of a dream of king nebuchadnezzar of babylon, involving a mighty tree being chopped down and the stump lying dormant for seven "times.

" nebuchadnezzar presses belteshazzar (daniel) into service to interpret the dream, and of course, it is about nebuchadnezzar himself.

the account continues:.

euripides

Leolaia--

OK its a pseudepigraphon.

5

The madness of King Nebuchadnezzar

by euripides in

daniel chapter 4 recounts the story of a dream of king nebuchadnezzar of babylon, involving a mighty tree being chopped down and the stump lying dormant for seven "times.

" nebuchadnezzar presses belteshazzar (daniel) into service to interpret the dream, and of course, it is about nebuchadnezzar himself.

the account continues:.

euripides

isn't it a pseudepigraphon mentioning Nabonidus?

I don't think the fragment states an author. A pseudepigraphon would be a text crediting itself as written by someone else, typically famous. It's difficult to call it an apocryphon because we don't know what place this text had in the religious community, although being found among the Dead Sea Scrolls obviously tends to give it more likelihood of religious importance.

Euripides