Posts by bjc2012

155

WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know in

some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.

it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.

presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.

bjc2012

YK,

Jesus' judgment of his slaves says, "that the slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. (destroyed in fact) But the one that DID NOT UNDERSTAND and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with a few." The evil slave and his apostate dub followers fit the description of the slave that knew but didn't perform. The majority of the anointed are simply guilty of sins of ignorance and neglect....We are not Jehovah's spokesmen to the world in the same manner that we will be in the future.

So the "evil slave" is destroyed, and the Faithful Slave turns out to be an idiot!

In other words, we have the "Evil Slave" and the "Faithful & Dummy" Slave. Those are our two choices for leadership.

Seems to me, being the "Dummy Slave" (and not the "Discreet Slave"), he certainly is not a very worthy leader by any means to be in charge of God's Household. But your statement implies the "evil slave" KNOWS the will of God, but the so-called "Dummy Slave" does not. Seriously though, how can the "Evil Slave" actually "understand the will of his master" and the "Faithful Slave" not understand his master's will? And if he does not "understand his master's will", why does Jesus call him the "Discreet Slave"?

Your description unmistakedly means God and Jesus left the sheep "in the lurch", with no way out. Thats because the ones left in charge of the flock, and those put in the front of the sheep are either "evil" or totally not "qualified to teach" and lead. (2 Cor. 4:9; 1 Tim. 3:2)

Is this vision of yours reminiscient of the picture left by first century christian writers of the congregation of "anointed" ones in their day? Did the first century congregation only have Evil leadership or Dummy leadership to depend on? These are the only two choices they had. No truly "discreet" leadership in the first century. (Of course that does not make sense.)

So you would have us to believe the "Other Sheep" today, are obligated to listen to either the "evil slave" as a leader, or the "Dummy Slave" as a leader.

Whew!

I'm not convinced you have all of the facts before you to make such a decision. For one thing, your description of Jesus' parable does not take into account the one that the "evil slave" beats, namely his "fellow slaves", or "menservants" and "maidservants". Are you prepared to say the "domestics" are pictured here as the "menservants" or "fellow slaves" that the "evil slave" browbeats?

Or do you think the "Evil Slave" and the "Dummy Slave" just fight it out between themselves. I mean, who is the "Evil Slave" browbeating? Is he "browbeating" the "Dummy Slave" or the "Domestics"?

bjc

PS: BTW, since you are "anointed", which group are you in, the "evil" group or the "dummy" group?

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 22:38:49

155

WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know in

some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.

it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.

presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.

bjc2012

YK,

The new covenant of Christ established on Pentecost with his anointed ones is the basis for cleansing and restoring Jehovah's sons and daughters. Having a new heart and a new spirit simply means that Jehovah will provide recuperation according to out faith in Christ's shed blood.

Paul said:

"For if we (anointed) practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice [of Jesus] for sins left." (Hebrews 10:26)

Jesus' sacrifice cannot save an anointed christian if with accurate knowledge, they practice sin. The apostle John backs this thought up by saying anointed christians all possess a "reproductive seed" within them that keeps them on track with God. So if they sin and embark on a course of sin, say practice sin, they are without a doubt, doing it deliberately since God is constantly letting them know they are repeatedly offending Him and thus "grieving his spirit". (Ephesians 4:30; 1 John 3:9)

So YK, you cannot have it both ways. If they are anointed, then they must have accurate knowledge. That means they are "sinning" with knowledge, in which case the blood of Jesus does not help them. Or you have to admit they are not anointed and so do not have accurate knowledge as of yet. In that case, then forgiven could be granted. But they cannot be "anointed" and at the same time lack crucial "accurate knowledge" while practicing sin before God. That combination doesn't work.

Simply put, one can't be anointed without having "accurate knowledge" and the spirit actively leading him into greater truth. However, if one doesn't have the anointing upon himself, he can be forgiven a "practice of sin" since they are not directly "grieving" the reproductive seed of the holy spirit, which is implanted within all anointed one, which means blasphemy of God's spirit. This is your only possibility for forgiveness that exists for the sinful "apostate nation" of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Isaiah 10:6)

And this would explain why Jehovah's Witnesses are sooooo stupid, soooo dumb and ignorant about things. It explains why they need a "new heart" and a "new spirit" within them. Admittedly if they are "anonted", then this would a horrible spiritual condition to be in, as a spiritual leader of the world of mankind! As a spokeman for God. I repeat, the spirit leads them, and God puts "His words in their mouth" and they now can properly represent Him to the nations. And this spiritual condition makes them worthy to lead the nations before God. They, thus do not teach falsehoods and mislead people. Israel will have to repent of their "transgressions" against God, before He will bestow this Spokesman Leadership role upon them as a nation. The ancient prophet said of repentant Israel,

"And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to those turning from transgression in Jacob, is the utterance of Jehovah. And as for me, this is my covenant with them, Jehovah has said. My spirit that is upon you and my words that I have put in your mouth -- they will not be removed from your mouth or from the mouth of your offspring or from the mouth of the offspring of your offspring, Jehovah has said, from now on even to time indefinite." (Isaiah 59:20, 21)

Israel must be restored spiritually, before the Spokeperson role is bestowed upon the nation, the above prophecy says. They are "restored" before God "puts His Words in their mouth" as of a true prophet. They will at that time, speak "truth", and experience the "change to a pure language" of truth. They will speak truth to each other at that time, when God restores them.

Zephaniah 3:9 says:

"For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder."

Now, I know you think this prophecy applies to Jehovah's Witnesses and not to the world in general, right? The "shoulder to shoulder" unity and all. That can only be Jehovah's Witnesses, according to you. So then you must be saying Jehovah's Witnesses are going to receive a "change to a pure language". You have to say this.

But why is this needed?

Well, it is because they really need it. They need a "change", to speaking real truth. A true "change" is really needed too, since they've been lying the whole way. So a "change" is long over due and needed for lying Israel.

But before God grants the "change to a pure language", real Godly repentance must come forth from the nation. Then, God puts "His spirit" upon them. And they become God's Prophet Nation, God's Spokeperson Nation to all other nations upon earth "to time indefinite". That's the order of things, Isaiah 59:20, 21 shows.

We remember "anointed" christians of the first century were not taught outright lies and falsehoods as spiritual doctrines, like 1914. Neither did the apostles practice lying to one another, as the Governing Body does today. Case in point, all of the lying over the NGO Library Card Defense, called "Theocratic Strategy". But of course, this lying was to the brothers, instead of to the world, wasn't it? And that is even worse. So they lie, when its convenient. They lie to the brothers and the world, when its convenient. But first century christians did not practice such things and certainly not the apostles. The is because first century christians had an "anointing of Him [God]" which was teaching them truth, always. Peter backed up John's statement by saying the "anointed" had the "incorruptible seed" within them "through the word of the living and enduring God." Therefore, "anointed" christians did not "follow artfully contrived false stories", like 1914. (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Peter 1:16) "Anointed" christians were truly "led by the spirit" using the "enduring Word of God" to reveal any false teacher or teaching. They knew how to "test the spirit" and "test the teaching", unlike "airhead" so-called "anointed" Jehovah's Witnesses of today. (See 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 4:1; Revelation 2:2.) This shows them to be true sons of God. Truly "anointed" ones did not a need for anyone to teach them anything, really. That's because the spirit taught them "all things". They were self-sufficient because of the implanting of the "spirit" within them. If by chance one person got out of line, the others could correct him. As Paul corrected Peter. "Anointed" ones had a built-in safety valve system within the congregational arrangement. Such a God-provided safety system, implanted within each and every "anointed" christian, would have surely prevented the untold brutality, tyranny and outright fleecing of the sheep, as we see practiced on a wholesale level, on the part of the wicked WTS Headquarters staff and company over these many years. (1 John 2:20, 27)

So, if Jehovah's Witnesses are to escape this terrible judgment from God, as described for "anointed" christians at Hebrews 10:26, either one of the two following conditions must be present:

(a) Either Jehovah's Witnesses do not have an "accurate knowledge of the truth" while they are practicing sin

which means of course they are simply not "anointed" as of yet. Or,

(b) The Jehovah's Witnesses simply have not practiced sin at all, while possessing this spirit-given accurate knowledge of truth -- like 1914. Since you contend that the truly "anointed" are among Jehovah's Witnesses as a body.

But, it is very easy to prove Jehovah's Witnesses are practicing sin. You admit that yourself.

So, are they "practicing sin" with "truth", with "accurate knowledge"? Don't you claim that the doctrine of 1914 is not a false teaching, but is Divine Truth? So, you believe Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching "truth" with this 1914 doctrine, for over 125 years -- Your identification mark that they are the "true religion".

However, if Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching "truth", then why do they need spiritual "recuperation" as you say above. And what always comes with spiritual "recuperation", I ask? Notice the following prophecy:

"Here I am bringing up for her a recuperation and health; and I will heal them and reveal to them an abundance of peace and TRUTH." (Jeremiah 33:6)

The prophecy reveals the "recuperation" of Israel will be accompanied with the giving of "an abundance of peace and truth." This being the case, how can one say Israel today has "truth"? You simply can't say it. You can't even call it "The Truth", as most Jehovah's Witnesses do. This is especially true with all of that lying going on at headquarters of 1914, NGO/UN G.B. 10-year affair, endless false prophecies applied to Christendom in every book they ever printed for over a 100 years, and on and on. The list never stops. We are speaking of the "Israel" that wickedly are the ones who haughtily transgress Jehovah by way of "speaking the lie and the tricky tongue". How can you say "tricky tongue" Israel has "truth" before God? The "woman" who is chased to the wilderness does not have "truth". The "woman" has to "fed" by God, while there. She does not have truth. -- Jeremiah 30:17; Zephaniah 3:11-13; Rev. 12: 6, 14

We know this because you've admitted the real "truth" comes when the "spirit of truth" is to "guide them into all truth" in the future. (John 16:13)

So then, that is the problem in itself. The "anointed" of the first century had the truth and were guided by it, since the "reproductive seed" was implanted within them. But Jehovah's Witnesses cannot prove such a thing exists for them today. You certainly don't have it, as I would not find this conversation and discussion necessary for you today. But you simply "Don't know" any better, contrary to your namesake.

Remember, it was said of the the truly "anointed",

"And you have an anointing from the holy one; all of you have knowledge...And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him."

John said, the "anointing from him" was "IN YOU". Inside of the individual christian. And the "reproductive seed" of the spirit "is teaching you about ALL THINGS and is true and is no lie". The "anointing from God" does not teach lies -- lies like 1914! And further, that "anointing from Him" teaches the anonted "ABOUT ALL THINGS" -- all things.

But you have already admitted, Jehovah's Witnesses, under the present guidance of the Holy Spirit, have not learned "all things", have they? Jehovah's Witnesses do not know "all things", even though they claim to have been anointed for 125 years and have been "led by the spirit" all that time. After 125 years, surely the "spirit" should have taught them "all things" by now. (Romans 8:14)

No but instead, they are "sinning", "transgressing" constantly. So much so, they have to be "chased" off their own land and banished from before God's sight. They have to be "fed", educated in the wilderness. (Rev. 12:6, 14) And you say these are the "anointed", who have to be "fed" in the wilderness? What?!? These are the "anointed" who are sinning, transgressing with idolatry -- sinning and lying for over 125 years. You say they are "sinning" as anointed christians, repeatedly without ever blaspheming the spirit. The same "spirit" that is currently trying to teach them, but they are not listening -- Impossible!

Close scrutiny reveals that Jehovah's Witnesses only teach lies. Lies like 1914. And they have been teaching that for over 125 years. And nobody, including God's spirit can't correct them. Only a trip to the "wilderness" will solve the problem. (I know you don't like to discuss this subject, but 1914 is a lie, and very easy to prove too. If you think you can handle the "heat", try out this next thread and we will see.)

[1914 Lie Exposed: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=26176&site=3]

Also one more thing will help to remove all doubt about Israel's true spiritual condition before discipline. The "curse" that God puts upon His people. Jehovah's Witnesses are going to receive the "curse" from God for violating His Law. That will ultimately prove, they are transgressors of God's covenant, and in need of another covenant arrangement. Is it any wonder, the "curse" coming from disobedience of the Law Covenant, and is most fittingly placed upon the holy city, Jerusalem. And we know, this very "curse" will have to be removed from upon the nation. But by what means? Certainly not by Jesus coming back to earth, and becoming a "curse" all over again for the nation. No, certainly not that. (Galatians 3:13; Revelation 22:3)

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 14:27:8

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 14:44:33

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 14:50:39

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 14:59:16

7

????? - "Established Kingdom"...

by Olympiad in

established kingdom

this verbiage has always been of interest to me, established kingdom, however we should remind our watchtower friends that it can not be found in the bible, any bible that i am aware of.

it is the basis however for the new message preached by jehovahs favored few.

bjc2012

Greetings Olympiad,

I enjoyed your write up on the subject on the Kingdom of God. I agree the WTS' kingdom is all about themselves and their message is of 1914 which serves only to extol their virtues and laud them before others, and so on.

In conclusion the established kingdom which the Watchtower references does not exist! Mathew and the other books refer appropriately to the Kingdom of the Heavens which has always been in existence and has always been established and has always had Jehovah and Jesus Christ as his first born through whom all other things came into existence exercising authority over it. What Christ did specifically for the children of men here on earth was not set in motion in 1914 it was at his baptism, death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. That was the appointed time.

What is your opinion of the question Peter asked Jesus,

"Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6)

Since we know God's heavenly kingdom has been empowered in the hands of Jesus for centuries now, I'm wondering about Peter's question above. We know Peter must have been thinking in terms of an earthly kingdom being restored, when he asked this question. Also we know Jesus taught his disciples to pray "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth." So Peter must have been eagerly looking forward to the earthly re-establishment of this kingdom on earth. (Matthew 6:10)

I'm wondering, since we continue to pray these words above, for God's kingdom 'to come on earth as it is in heaven', could perhaps the "restoration of Israel" Peter spoke of, point us forward to the establishment of an earthly seat of government for God, His Kingdom Rule on earth?

For example, take Revelation 5:10 as rendered by the New International Version. It says

"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and THEY WILL REIGN ON EARTH."

I think this translation is a more accurate rendering than the NWT. Based upon the above words, could this perhaps be the fulfillment of the promised, coming "Kingdom of God" on earth as foreseen by apostle John?

Your thoughts please...

bjc

155

WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know in

some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.

it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.

presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.

bjc2012

YK,

"In those days and at that time, is the utterance of Jehovah, the sons of Israel, they and the sons of Judah together, will come. They will walk, weeping as they walk, and for Jehovah their God they will seek. To Zion they will keep asking the way, with their faces in that direction, saying Come and let us join ourselves to Jehovah in an indefinitely lasting covenant that will not be forgotten." (Jeremiah 50:4,5)

Israel is "weeping". Israel is "weeping as they walk". Israel is desperate, and in desperate need for help. This is because they realize they have completely failed God, the prophecy shows. Clearly, in this prophecy of the future, Israel is attempting to "join themselves to Jehovah" in a covenant, since they have been detached. This is not a restrengthening of existing one between the two parties. But this is a new beginning for Israel. A new start. A new covenant arrangement. This is something that the nation must do. We notice the nation is so lost, they have to ask directions just to get back to their homeland. They are a totally lost people, who have lost their covenant with God because of bad conduct. Their "transgressions" are so great, that their previous relationship with Jehovah has been completely severed, completely detached. Thus the need to "join themselves" again to God.

Interesting the prophet Ezekiel foretold the following for repentant Israel,

"And I will take you out the nations and collect you together out of all the lands and bring you in upon your soil. And I will sprinkle upon you clean water, and you will become clean; from all your impurities and from all your dungy idols I shall cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I shall put inside you, and I will take away the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And my spirit I shall put inside you, and I will act so that in my regulations you will, and my judicial decision you will keep and actually carry out. And you will certainly dwell in the land that I gave to your forefathers, and you must become my people and I myself shall become your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)

In the above scene, we can see it is an entirely earthly scene. Israel must "become God's people" while on earth. And then, He will "become their God", again on earth. Jehovah knows that in order to fully accomplish this for the nation, they must have a "new spirit" and a "new heart" put within them, in order to learn to obey Jehovah in all things and keep His covenant, regulations and judicial decisions. The "old heart" and "old spirit" failed Israel. They broke God's law, completely. So God sees the need of a "new heart" and a "new spirit" for Israel showing, they do not "know Jehovah" at all and have failed him completely. Thus, in this way, these powerful words remind us of the Covenant promise given thru Jeremiah which said,

"For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days, is the utterance of Jehovah. I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people." (Jeremiah 31:33)

The words "They will become my people and I will become their God" shows they have utterly failed God, under the old covenant arrangement. These words help us to see, another covenant arrangement is definitely involved and needed. Because today, we see the same, identical need in Israel, as shown by both prophetic accounts. That is the definite need for a "new heart" and a "new spirit" within them, as a nation. A need for another covenant arrangement. Surely, the need for a "new heart" and "new spirit" go hand in hand with violating all of God's "regulations" and "judicial decisions" thus making the necessity for receiving of another covenant arrangement. The reason we know this is absolutely necessary, is the mention of the "outpouring of God's spirit" upon the nation, after reconciliation is achieved. We notice it is mentioned above in Ezekiel's prophecy. The outpouring of God's Holy Spirit upon the nation shows the Divine acceptance of a renewed spiritual relationship God, where they can "become His people, and He becomes their God." This is why Joel says in the last days, Jehovah would after disciplining His people, do the following:

"I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy...even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit." (Joel 2:28, 29)

After disciplining Israel in the last days, and after God cleanses Israel of sin, He will then "pour out his spirit" upon the entire nation in a new covenant arrangement, as it says, just before the "great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah". (Joel 2:31)

And all of these prophetic words and statements of the prophets of old, agree with John's future vision of Israel in the book of Revelation, when he heard the words,

"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." (Rev. 21:3, 4)

Again, the same words uttered, "and they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them." No doubt this is an earthly scene John saw for the restoration of earthly "Israel", who has sinned greatly before God. The prophets all speak of the same incident in Israel's life. A traumatic experience of severe discipline. So then, the "death" and "mourning" spoken of above, then will be done away FROM ISRAEL since,

"No more will violence be heard in your land [Israel], despoiling or breakdown within your boundaries. And you will certainly call your own walls salvation and your gates praise...No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the DAYS OF YOUR MOURNING WILL HAVE COME TO COMPLETION. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; for time indefinite they will hold possess of the land..." (Isaiah 60:18-21)

Clearly, this is an earthly scene. An earthly scene of how Israel actually comes to be "righteous". How "Israel" comes to "hold possession of the land", for "time indefinite". Forevermore. This scene above shows us how God restores spiritual Israel, upon its own soil -- right here on earth. When there will be "no more pain" and suffering upon ISRAEL, after she endures her much deserved discipline from God. The scene describes how there will be no more "tears", "outcry" and "death" for Israel, after they receive of God's discipline for them. This is because,

"...the sons of Israel will come back and certainly look for Jehovah their God [since they are lost], and for David their king; and they will certainly come QUIVERING TO JEHOVAH and to his goodness in the final part of the days." (Hosea 3:5)

There is no question, Israel will need a new "covenant" arrangement for the will of Jehovah to take place and be fully realized, as outlined above. No question at all a "new" covenant is needed to bring Israel to the point where all of Israel can be said to be truly "righteous" before God, with a "new heart" and a "new spirit". (Isaiah 60:21)

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 June 2002 10:22:51

155

WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know in

some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.

it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.

presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.

bjc2012

Hi Sirona:

Your post was interesting. You point out many problems with JWs in general, yet still indicate that JWs (e.g. yourself) are privvy to the secrets of the prophyseys and that this is simply a refining process. That is a completely ridiculous claim. It is a cloak behind which you hide all the innacuracies and lies of the WBTS, saying that those who are faithful will stay true to Jehovah despite it all. Well, all they know of Jehovah has been spoon fed to them by the WBTS so their faith is based on this tainted organisation's interpretation of the bible.

Continuing on that insightful point that you make, I see the terrible error in YK's SPECIOUS doctrine is revealed in his lack of knowledge of prophecy which he claims to believe in. Here is an example.

Briefly, those of us who post to him regularly, can no doubt remember YK firmly believes in Bible prophecy as it applies to Jehovah's Witnesses specifically as a nation. One such prophecy he admits to believing in is Ezekiel 20:35-38. He believes this prophecy specifically applies to Jehovah's Witnesses. A prophecy that upon close examination shows an obvious close correlation to the contents of Revelation 12th chapter. These events YK believes is speaking of the FUTURE, events that lay before us. Specifically the mention of the "woman" being "chased" to the wilderness" as being "Israel". YK can point to Jeremiah 30:17 to back this thought up.

But here is the real problem with that thought. You see, YK claims that among JWs there exists the spiritual "remnant", the anointed footstep followers of Jesus, who exist in an "EVERLASTING COVENANT" with Christ. Hebrews 13:20 shows it to be an "everlasting covenant", based upon the blood of Jesus. This is the "covenant" YK believes he is personally in, and the one that makes some 8,000 or so JW members, the anointed "Spiritual Israel" of God of our day. They are thus, the true "Household of God" he believes. But this very reasoning itself, is the fatal flaw in his argument, totally within itself. All we have to do is analyze the data. And the key text is Ezekiel 20:35-38.

You see, when we closely examine Ezekiel 20:35-38, it shows "Israel" of Bible prophecy is to receive ANOTHER covenant from God AFTER they are sent to the "wilderness of the people!" Now this is AFTER God disciplines them, and they repentantly accept the discipline from God. This proves they are God's sons. (Hebrews 12:5-11) Afterwhich God gives them an ultimatum -- come under God's "rod" and accept a pernanent "bond" from Him in the form of a new "covenant" arrangement.

Yipes! So what happened to the first covenant Israel had? The "Christian Covenant"? YK simply has no answer for that question. He is mute.

In fact, the prophecy reveals Israel will not be allowed to even return to their "hereditary possession" and receive God's favor UNTIL they accept this new "covenant" arrangement from God. They must come under the "rod of God" to be reowned by Him and "bonded" to Him again, as before the initial transgression period. (Leviticus 27:32 NIV; Jeremiah 33:13) So, Israel must accept a new "covenant" arrangement AFTER they are disciplined in the "wilderness of the peoples" by the Almighty. Additionally, Jeremiah 50:4,5 shows this new covenant arrangement to be an "indefinitely lasting covenant that will not be forgotten".

Ezekiel 20:35-38 reveals all of this. Below is a quote of the verses in question.

"And I will bring you [Israel] into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with you there face to face. Just as I put myself on judgment with your forefathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I shall put myself on judgment with you, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. And I will make you pass under the rod and bring you into the bond of the covenant. And I will clean out from you the revolters and the transgressors against me, for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come; and you people will have to know that I am Jehovah."

Above, Ezekiel 20:35-38 shows that ALL "revolters" and "transgressors" against God are "cleaned out", purged or rooted out from Israel. And what is left, are the ones that God chooses to deal with. Only what is left, a remnant are blessed by God. And these are the ones that Jehovah invites to "pass under his rod", and "bond" with Him in a new "covenant" arrangement. All "transgressors" are not permitted to go back to the "hereditary land" promised Israel. Evildoers cannot go back and do not receive any "covenant" from God. The only ones getting a new "covenant" arrangement is severely chastised, "re-bonded" Israel.

So based upon the above information and what YK believes and teaches, if Bible prophecy reveals that spiritual "Israel" of our day is to receive an "indefinitely lasting covenant that will never be forgotten" AFTER being punished by God in the "wilderness of the peoples", why are they receiving a new "covenant" arrangement. Why does God require it. We must then ask, what happened to the first covenant, the one they supposedly had with Jesus Christ, the one spoke of in Hebrews 13:20? Well, simply put, IT MUST BE GONE! Its gone, so far as Jehovah is concerned, anyway.

Now keep in mind, this does not even touch on the fact that the truly "anointed" of God of the first century, could not break the first covenant anyway, and receive another one. This would be impossible. The inspired writings of Paul and John show the reality that truly spirit-anointed individuals of the first century, had to prove faithful to the covenant of Jesus, because they had a "reproductive seed" within them that would keep them on track, always. So, if they should "fall away," Paul said they could not be "revived" ever again. They would have deliberately "grieved God's spirit" [the reproductive seed] to such an extent, that they had blasphemed it. (Eph. 4:30) This was the case of the truly anointed ones of the first century.

Therefore, based upon the above established facts, and Bible prophecy that YK's so much believes, there simply cannot be any of the truly anointed among JWs at all. And based upon what YK teaches, this is especially true of his claim to be a member of "spiritual Israel" fulfilling Bible prophecy today. And as we know, YK does claims he in fact one of the anointed spiritual "Israelites" on earth today. But the bible reveals that if the JW Organization were led by truly anointed ones, they would not under any circumstances be invited by God to receive another "everlasting covenant" by Him AFTER they had forfeited the first one by BAD CONDUCT and "transgression". Not under any circumstances would God do such a thing. (Romans 8:14; Hebrews 6:4-8; 13:20; 10:26-31; 1 John 3:9)

bjc

[A full discussion on the Anointed "error" of YK: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=30542&page=2&site=3#398563]

Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:39:17

Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:45:56

Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:49:13

37

Judgement Starts At The House Of God

by NewWay in

i'm an english man in my early 40s, was brought up as a jw, got baptized when i was in my teens, and married in my early 20s.

i have two sons and two daughters ranging from 6 years of age to 18.. .

although my wife associates with one of the local congregations of jws, i no longer attend or participate in jw activities.

bjc2012

You Know,

Ezekiel 37:23 says,

"And they [Israel] will no longer defile themselves with their dungy idols and with their disgusting things and with all their transgressions; and I shall certainly save them from all their dwelling places [NWT Ref. Bib. footnote "apostasies"] in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them, and they must become my people, and I myself shall become their God."

The above verse shows, BEFORE Israel becomes God's people, and BEFORE He becomes their God, God says, Israel has "sinned", "defiled themselves" with "disgusting things". Period. Remember, its called "the transgression that causes desolation." So God allows the terrific "Trampling" upon Israel that will "bring the holy place into its rightful condition." Or, have you forgotten. God "cleanses" them. A very necessary "cleansing" of them. Because they are filthy before Him. And that means you, "You Know". (Daniel 8:13, 14)

Now, if Israel had done no sinning, no "transgressing", then he would not have to "cleanse" them, would he?. This would be wholly unnecessary.

Israel recognizes this because she says in repentance at Micah 7:9,

"The raging of Jehovah I shall bear -- for I have sinned against him -- until he conducts my legal case and actually executes justice for me."

She admits it. She is guilty -- plain and simple.

Also, Ezekiel 36:25-32 says,

"And I will sprinkle upon you clean water, and you will become clean; from all your impurities and from all your dungy idols I shall cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I shall put inside you, and I will take away the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And my spirit I shall put inside you, and I will act so that in my regulations you will walk, and my judicial decision you will keep and actually carry out. And you will certainly dwell in the land that I gave to your forefathers, and you must become my people and I myself shall become your God. And I will save you from all your impurities and call to the grain and make it abound, and I shall put upon you no famine...And you will be bound to remember your bad ways and your dealings that were not good, and you will be bound to feel a loathing at your own person on account of your errors and on account of your detestable things. Not for your sakes am I doing this, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, let it be known to you. Be ashamed and feel humiliation because of your ways, O house of Israel."

God says, Israel has a "heart of stone"...no fellow feeling at all. No love for people. (Kind of like you, "You Know". Reminds me of you.)

And yet you say, some of the "anointed" among Jehovah's Witnesses have not sinned? Are you kidding...LOL.

Think: if the "woman" is so righteous and guiltless as you say, the "anointed" so innocent, then why is there offered to her another "covenant", a new way to "bond" herself to her God? I'm talking about your so-called "innocent" party here. The "woman" who is soooo innocent in your eyes. The "woman" of Revelation 12th chapter. Why offer her a "covenant" in the first place, if--if she had not violated the previous one she had? Why offer her one, You know?

God certainly saw the need, did he not? (Ezekiel 20:37)

However, according to you, the fact that God offers "Israel" another "covenant" to "bond" with Him, is not wholly necessary, is it? No because she has NOT sinned at all. She is innocent. So why would Jehovah do this? If I listen to you, this offer would simply be a pointless exercise, would it not -- if she [Israel] had NEVER VIOLATED GOD'S COVENANT.

Or, are you just mistaken, here?

Which?

Its clear Israel has "sinned", greatly before God. And she must repent, and must "join herself to Jehovah" in "an indefinitely lasting covenant that will not be forgotten." This point is quite clear. (Jer. 50:4,5)

As for the dire need for another "covenant" to "bond" themselves again to God, Paul said,

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; for He [God] does find fault with the people when he says: Look! There are days coming, says Jehovah, and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant." (Hebrews 8:7,8)

God does "find fault with the people", He says. Thus, the need for a new covenant arrangement. (Eze. 20:37; Jer. 50:4,5)

Now as for the "anointed", the so-called "anointed" among Jehovah's Witnesses.

1 John 3:9 says,

"Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God."

The truly "anointed" do not "practice sin". They cannot do it, God's Word says. Case closed. And I'll tell you something else, the truly "anointed" don't get chased to the wilderness for "judgment" either. (Jer. 30:17) Therefore, we can safely conclude, there are no "anointed" among JWs to start with. They never qualified as a people, as a nation, for the appointment. Simple. Bible prophecy indicates, Israel receives the "anointing" or "pouring out" of the holy spirit only AFTER she has repented and received fully of God's discipline. Then God acts to "pour out his spirit" upon the nation, now a "cleansed" people worthy to represent Him to all other nations as His spokeman -- finally! (See Ezekiel 36:27; 39:29; Joel 2:28, 29; Isaiah 59:21)

Now, as for me teaching you anything, I've known about this information long BEFORE you, many years before...even before you were so-called "anointed". So what? LOL.

And whatsmore, even now, you don't understand it. Your prophetic interpretations are in error again. Your "absurdities" and "fallacies" of thought are ever showing. Your above post proves it.

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 20 June 2002 23:52:15

Edited by - bjc2012 on 21 June 2002 10:27:36

37

Judgement Starts At The House Of God

by NewWay in

i'm an english man in my early 40s, was brought up as a jw, got baptized when i was in my teens, and married in my early 20s.

i have two sons and two daughters ranging from 6 years of age to 18.. .

although my wife associates with one of the local congregations of jws, i no longer attend or participate in jw activities.

bjc2012

You Know,

You are apparently a bit confused. I didn't twist anything you said. I took what you said at face value and commented how absurd it was to point to God's solution while stumbling over the problem. ...The Inquisitors were anti-thought. I merely challenged you to think, which obviously sometimes elicts a violent reaction on the part of those so challenged. ...It makes no difference to me whether you explain yourself or not. The way a discussion board like this works is that everyone has the right to challenge others, as well as the right not to defend their thoughts if they choose not to. ... I do reserve the right to point out fallacies in your thinking, should the occasion arise again, just as you can go on about by manner if you want.

What about the "fallacy" and "absurdity" of your beliefs? Here is the "fallacy" in your thinking and the total "absurdity" of it all.

Actually, I don't believe that the Watchtower is God's house either. Bethel is just a word. According to the scriptures the house of God is the congregation of anointed ones.

Good point. So then, are the "anointed" among JWs today, based upon what we are seeing by way of conduct? The truly "anointed", as those of the first century? Let's see.

Below, you will notice I've cited two prophecies that match almost perfectly.

Ezekiel 20:35-38 :: New International Version (NIV) Ezekiel 20
35 I will bring you into the desert of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. 36 As I judged your fathers in the desert of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign LORD . 37 I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD .

Revelation 12:1,6,13,14,15 :: New International Version (NIV) Revelation 12
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.

Most can see these two bible accounts match and foretell the future for Israel. A "face-to-face" meeting with God for "judgment". Israel is full of outright "revolters" and "rebels". Apostates in their own right, against God -- a disgusting sight to Him!

And yet you say, the "anointed", the truly "anointed" are among them? What???

It comes as no surprise of course to you, that the "woman" who has the "crown of 12 stars" on her head pictures "Israel" of Bible prophecy, the connection being the "twelve tribes" of the nation. And both Bible accounts show, the "wilderness" will be her next home for a while, because of "sin" on her part. Transgression that she will at that time, finally admit to having been guilty of. Repentance on her part, finally. But it took this trip to the "wilderness" to bring all of this about, didn't it? Her confession of actual "sin" in God's eyes. The confession is found at Micah 7:8, 9 .

From these two prophetic Bible accounts, we who believe in prophecy learn a few undeniable things. For those of us who still see the prophetic scriptures as still, largely yet unfulfilled that is, in its fullest sense, we can glean the following points:

1) All (and not part) of Israel is "chased" off their land to the "wilderness of the peoples." This is clearly God's doing. The entire nation is sent to the "wilderness of the peoples" for "JUDGEMENT" and a "face to face" meeting with God. (Isa. 30:26; Micah 4:6,7; Jeremiah 30:17; 23, 24; Ezekiel 20:35-38)

The "sanctity" of God's Name at stake. Of utmost importance. (Ezekiel 20:44; 36:20-23; also Ezekiel 37:29 see footnote lg prt NWT Ref Bib. where God moves to "sanctify" His Own Name when Israel does not.)

2) All wrongdoers are "purged" from God's People (Israel) WHILE IN WILDERNESS, while estranged from God and under His "face-to-face" judgment of them, in total condemnation. And after the "purging", the wicked among His people (Israel) are NOT allowed to return or "re-enter the land of Israel", as God inspects all things.

3) While in the "wilderness of the peoples", Israel must "pass under God's rod" and accept His new "covenant" arrangement from God. A non-negotiable position. God sees the necessity of Israel being "re-bonded" to Him through a non-negotiable proposed "Covenant" arrangement of His, BEFORE they are allowed to go back to their land. Israel must "rejoin themselves" to God in a "indefinitely lasting covenant that will never be forgotten", as Jeremiah 50:4,5 says.

Now back to your original statement.

Actually, I don't believe that the Watchtower is God's house either. Bethel is just a word. According to the scriptures the house of God is the congregation of anointed ones.

The "congregation of anointed ones"? Are you kidding.

Questions To Ponder about "Anointed" among JWs:

(a) If "Israel" is to receive another "covenant" from God, what in the world happened TO THE FIRST ONE, the "christian" covenant?

(b) How can those who are truly "anointed" be "re-bonded" with God in another "covenant" arrangement? Is such a thing even possible for "anointed" ones based upon the explicit statements made by Paul at Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 -- "anointed" wrongdoers that have openly "esteemed as ordinary value the blood of the covenant" as anointed footstep followers -- so much so that they NEED another "covenant" arrangement with God? Paul says, this is not "possible" at all. The "anointed" apostle John said the "anointed" simply do not "practice sin" at all because of the "reproductive seed" of the holy spirit within them. They simply don't do it...period. (See 1 John 3:9)

Now, "You Know", when you are ready to face such questions, you will see where you have erred in your estimation of prophetic matters of the future. You will see the "fallacy" and "absurdity" in your own thinking -- the "absurdity" in saying the "anointed" of JWs represent "the congregation" or "household of God". When you come around to that, then you will have to admit the obvious, that these same so-called "anointed" ones you speak of, could not possibly have fallen so low, so low as to be sent to the "wilderness", while having God's "reproductive seed" within them. That simply could not happen.

And yet we see, that is exactly what has happened to the congregation of JWs. To Israel. The Bible shows Israel will by that time, have fallen so much, in such bad spiritual shape, that they need to be "re-bonded" to God in another "covenant" arrangement. So says the prophecy. And then, you expect us to believe that God is going to allow them to go off to heaven to rule with Christ and other faithful followers of the first century, and rule over everybody else??? Totally absurd -- the "fallacy" in your thinking, I think.

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 20 June 2002 21:5:56

37

Judgement Starts At The House Of God

by NewWay in

i'm an english man in my early 40s, was brought up as a jw, got baptized when i was in my teens, and married in my early 20s.

i have two sons and two daughters ranging from 6 years of age to 18.. .

although my wife associates with one of the local congregations of jws, i no longer attend or participate in jw activities.

bjc2012

To LDH: I'm doing great. Good to hear from you!

To: NewWay

JWs would be wise to see that the troubles coming upon the organisation are not attacks by the Devil, but could well be judgements from God himself, for eventually He catches up with those who by their deeds mock or make Him look like a fool (Galatians 5:7). Remember Edom? (Jeremiah 49:10).

Your viewpoint implies much I feel. By saying the above, you've brought God into the picture stating He will take some particular "action" against JWs as a people. I agree with this viewpoint. But many will not.

You'll find that there are basically two schools of thought on this viewpoint among us:

(1) One that advocates Divine Retribution and Divine accountability for the WTS' (& JWs) actions, policies and practices. Jehovah pays back.

(2) And one that says that God is simply NOT in the picture at all. Thus Jehovah's Witnesses are just another cult among many in this world who cause much harm. Live with it, be happy you found out and make the best of the rest of your life.

You will find, the vast majority here are of the latter viewpoint. A very small number are of the first opinion. And most of these are mostly puzzled by what they see, and mute since they can't explain it. I'm of the first school of thought too. But I've studied the issues for 11 years or more and even before. (I've had a few years to think about this thing, since I've been a JW since the early '50s.) Being a JW for over 50 years, I feel, entitles me to be a little more opinionated than most. LOL!

My opinion: I believe one cannot speak of God's "wrath" upon anyone without their first being a "tie-in" of some kind with God in the first place. This exists usually in the form of a "law" given, or mutual contract or "covenant" between the two, before God begins to "charge" sin against some one. I believe the following Bible verses support such a viewpoint.

Romans 4:15 :: New International Version (NIV) Romans 4
15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13 :: New International Version (NIV) Romans 5
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Therefore, based upon the above Bible texts and principles laid out by Paul, when we say God is going to take some specific action against someone, or a particular group of people, whether we realize or not we are automatically implying some previous relationship, some mutual understanding or meeting of the minds between God and the violator. We are saying God has a special "interest" in these people, whoever they are. This would be a "catch 22" for many here, since they simply can't for the life of themselves believe such a thing is possible. Especially with all of the hoodwicking, trickery, treachery and butchery going on, in the Name of God. (Of course the prophets of old saw this constantly among fellow believers. People in a "covenant" relationship with God.) This is hard to stomach.

But at the same time, many here just don't like the idea of the WTS getting away with all the "dirt" that they have done either. They would love to believe God is going to completely destroy the JW organization totally and obliterate them from the earth for all time. But to say this, means JWs must have first had some "covenant" arrangement with God, for Him to take such a personal interest in these affairs. He must personally be offended by their actions. Most feel that the WTS/JWs just couldn't qualify for such a distinction. Its just too great an honor, for these scoundrels.

I personally believe Jehovah's Witnesses achieved this status with God, in 1931 when they voluntarily took His Name upon themselves by sworn oath, and agreed to uphold the "sanctity" of that Name. Thus establishing a covenant arrangement with God. Now from that day forward, their conduct be it good or bad, would reflect either favorably or unfavorably upon that Name, and upon that particular "covenant" agreement made with God back in 1931. And naturally, if they should continue on a course of sin, they would eventually have to come "face-to-face" with God for their actions in "judgment" for any reproach heaped upon His Name, forcing God to hold them accountable. Why? Its all because of the "Name". -- Please see Ezekiel 20:9, 14, 22, 35-38, 44; Ezekiel 36:20-23; Ezekiel 39:27 (see footnote NWT large print); Romans 2:24; 1 Timothy 6:1

Regardless of which way you see the issues discussed here, we are glad you are here! Welcome, welcome aboard.

bjc

37

Judgement Starts At The House Of God

by NewWay in

i'm an english man in my early 40s, was brought up as a jw, got baptized when i was in my teens, and married in my early 20s.

i have two sons and two daughters ranging from 6 years of age to 18.. .

although my wife associates with one of the local congregations of jws, i no longer attend or participate in jw activities.

bjc2012

Welcome NewWay!

Great to have you here.

...the seams of the organisation are started to split. Since the organisation is confident in applying the term 'Bethel' (Hebrew: house of God) to its many centres of control, it should not feel it unfair if it is first in line for accountability since judgement is 'to begin at the household of God' (1 Peter 4:17). JWs would be wise to see that the troubles coming upon the organisation are not attacks by the Devil, but could well be judgements from God himself, for eventually He catches up with those who by their deeds mock or make Him look like a fool (Galatians 5:7). Remember Edom? (Jeremiah 49:10).

Ohh, how very true your words are.

Check out the following comments made recently in "Bible Research" with regards to the JW Organization facing impending "judgment as the House of God". Here is a partial quote:

"...These words of Jesus have proven quite true for us today. This is because, Jehovah's Witnesses, with all of her unrighteousness, continues to "fit the bill" of the prophetic description given of her centuries ago, as modern day "Israel" of Bible prophecy. We have the "convincing evidence" of her guilt right before us, just as the "God of the inspired utterances of the prophets" said centuries ago. (Revelation 22:6)"

Here is the link:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=30424&site=3

Your comments above are well-chosen and very insightful. Looking forward to more of the same.

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 19 June 2002 10:53:29

21

Does God Really Care?

by Undecided in

jw
friends

i'm wondering about god lately.

is he really in touch with the earth at all?

how much trouble would it be for him to bring a rain in colorado to stop the fires and save the houses of those people?

bjc2012

Ken P:

Who is responsibile for our bad behavior then, Adam or God?

Neither. In the end, we are personally accountable for ourselves. Jesus made this point in the following parable.

The Parable of the Growing Seed - Mark 4th Chapter (NIV) 26 He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28 All by itself the soil produces grain--first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29 As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."

We will all experience a "personal harvest" from God. We experience a personal accountability toward Him. Over the years, we've developed into the type of person we saw fit to become. We may not see all the growth process, exactly how we have grown. Also what we look at in the end before God. We may not fully discern what we are. But God knows. He interprets the data correctly and makes His final decision when he "harvests" us. Therefore, ultimately in this way, we make ourselves whatever we are at the time of our personal "harvest". The final product, is our choice. And Jehovah is the "harvester". And we are "harvested" as to whether we've developed into being the kind of persons that God would want in His Kingdom arrangement. The above Bible account shows this.

This is also shown at Proverbs 9:12 too.

Proverbs 9:12

12
If you are wise, you are wise for yourself,
And if you scoff, you alone will bear it. (NASB)

I just don't beleive the Genesis account of what happened.

Luke 18:8

8 ...However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (NIV)

bjc