Posts by blacksheep

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

"Yes, it's true.

Before 9/11, the US did practically NOTHING to stop terrorism. In fact, as is well-discussed in many of these threads, the US government has aided and abetted terrorists for years, as long as it suited their current policies."

Ah yes. When Clinton was in power? I agree with you there. Fortunately, we had actual LEADERSHIP voted in. Clinton turned a blind eye to the buildup of terrorism. Oh, but he did take an active stance on an ASPIRIN factory. Yes, that's fighting terrorism. He set the world stage. He gave terrorists confidence that we would really take no action on terrorism.

135

Victory for Terrorism

by Yerusalyim in

the terrorists won a great victory in spain.

mind you, i'm all for the democratic process...it's great...and had the spanish decided to part ways with the us of it's own volition, great!...however, the socialists were project to not win a majority in this weekends election...that is until the terrorist attack.

now, with the socialist coming into power...and the promise to both withdraw the 1300 spanish soldiers from iraq and to part ways with the us on foriegn policy we can look for more such attacks in other countries.

blacksheep

"Some people on this board seem to be blissfully ignorant of US history and seem to be trying to make the point that the US stands up to dictators?"

And exactly how does you overblown post address any of the question? You've thrown up all over us on exactly how the US hasn't stood up to dictators. Well, then, maybe it's time we did.

Your point? Are you for or against fighting terrorism? Or are you just pointing to a slant which suggests we haven't stood up to terrorism in the past? So, even if that were true (which it's not), what's your point? We haven't done it in the past, so we shouldn't do it now?

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

"still spreading the same old falsehood. Several independent studies show that Bush did win Florida ... (of course those stories were buried)... but then again, I know it helps the anti-Bush people in trying to bolster their feeble arguments."

I wonder what excuse will be offered if Bush wins again. The dem's are already prepping with things such as Ralph Nader "stealing" the dem vote (snicker)... Something, somewhere will be "unfair" about it. That's that hallmark of Democrats (and one of the reasons I defected!)

135

Victory for Terrorism

by Yerusalyim in

the terrorists won a great victory in spain.

mind you, i'm all for the democratic process...it's great...and had the spanish decided to part ways with the us of it's own volition, great!...however, the socialists were project to not win a majority in this weekends election...that is until the terrorist attack.

now, with the socialist coming into power...and the promise to both withdraw the 1300 spanish soldiers from iraq and to part ways with the us on foriegn policy we can look for more such attacks in other countries.

blacksheep

"If polls were really accurate, then why bother having an election?!"

And if polls were really accurate, who could say with any degree of certainty the collective opionion that Spain held about the war was? What the collective opinion of the US is about the war? How do you think opinions are measured, if not with polls? To suggest they are not accurate, I can agree with. But to suggest somehow that we knew the majority opinion of Spanish people other than through polls.... I'd be curious to know how this was measured.

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

"Are you accusing someone who disagrees with the current actions of the US government re: Iraq as being on the side of the terrorists?"

Re-read my posts. That's not at all what I said. I said the vast majority of the US, after 9-11, blamed the terrorists of Al-Queda as the perpetrators of 9/11. They were utterly astounded by the inhuman way they could destroy innocent civilians to make a point. The nation stood together as one in committing to fight terrorism.

When something similar, but not of that vast magnititude hits Spain, they focus on the current president's support of Bush and his policy on Iraq as largely to blame. They didn't like Bush. And now he apparently created their own personal 3-11. He created "unrest" in Iraq, which has now lead to unrest in their country. This has clearly been expressed in all major news media. They shift their anger from the true source, terrorists, to the leading democratic country who has been opposing terror. Misplaced anger. Bad move.

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

"Bravo Simon! Your entire post was on point with this. Again, let's remember that the majority of the citizens did NOT back the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I know this first hand, and and still very saddened."

Are you speaking of US citizens, Spanish citizens, or both. The majority of American citizens DID back the invasion of Iraq. Regardless, it is the president's decision, as the US commander-in-chief, to declare war. I suppose if he wanted to take a popular vote before doing so, he could. But, again, I hardly see that as a sign of strength and/or leadership. Anyone can merely carry out the 51% will of the people. Leaders and commanders-in-chiefs must make the tough decisions, not rely on poplular vote... The same is true of Spain. So they complained about invading Iraq. Why even ELECT leaders. When not just take a popular vote on everything?

Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy. Leading people through uncertainty is not.

135

Victory for Terrorism

by Yerusalyim in

the terrorists won a great victory in spain.

mind you, i'm all for the democratic process...it's great...and had the spanish decided to part ways with the us of it's own volition, great!...however, the socialists were project to not win a majority in this weekends election...that is until the terrorist attack.

now, with the socialist coming into power...and the promise to both withdraw the 1300 spanish soldiers from iraq and to part ways with the us on foriegn policy we can look for more such attacks in other countries.

blacksheep

"My point was instability and opportunities for terrorism are much higher in Iraq and in the whole Middle-East than they were one year ago. And I think they are."

Your wording was, not as above, but "who CREATED" that instablity. Any implications there? That's clearly different from your carefully worded statement above (kinda like Kerry claiming he was referring to Sean Hannity, not Bush, when he referened the big bucha crooks and liars...

"But, of course, the US just cannot stand dictators! They did tolerate a number of them in Europe (including Spain) in the 30's and early 40's. They did promote a number of them in Latin America. And they are still quite polite with a number of them when they are really dangerous (North Korea, China). Don't be silly."

Now who's evading the point. Hitler was IGNORED by most of Europe until he struck them in their own backyards. When the reality of what was going on became clear, they took the decisive action. This is 2004,not 1930/40. We do not tolerate persistent violation of human rights when we know about it; but we also don't go gunblazing into countries without adequate reason. We've sanctioned Castro (unlike many of the more "liberal" nations). To suggest that because we didn't ransack all despots 60-75 years ago as in any way having bearing upon what's being done today is a vapid, nonsensical argument. What exactly are you trying to prove?

"By the way, I'm curious what your concept of "democracy" is when you advocate "leadership" against one's people's majority.."

What exactly, is the "majority?" When we invaded Iraq/Afghanistan, the people, DID, by clear polls support it. If the support goes down a few months later when we actually experience casualities, do you find it to be the sign of a strong leader to withdraw? Is rule governed by polls and popular opinion?

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

"Bullshit."

I can only gather, since you can't articulately argue the point with anything other than a one-word profanity, that you in fact, have no sound argument.

102

Congratulations, Spain - first government to fall because of Iraq, Bush!

by TheOldHippie in

.

congratulations to the spanish people, who voted the socialists to power as a protest against the conservative government's supporting bush's war on iraq, and for claiming the madrid bombs were acts of the eta nationalists and not an al-qaida attack because of the war on iraq.. so one government has fallen, and there are many more to come, bush.. who says these days ain't fun?

blacksheep

""I look at this Spanish election as a golden opportunity for President Bush to get back on offense. I look at this as a great opportunity for President Bush to get the moral high ground back because there's a question that faces all of us now. Terrorism is either defeated or surrendered to, and this was true before the Spanish election results muddied the waters."

Interesting. Let's see whether some Spanish citizens look upon this, not merely as an opportunity to raise the white flag upon terrorism, but to do what some have done in the US. Turn on president/ruling party. Hint that they KNEW about 3/11, but failed to prevent it. What did the president know, and when did he know it???? Let's diffuse the energy and anger,not to the true source-- inhumane, amoral terrorists-- but the leaders of these world powers for being so lax as not to figure out in advance the sophisticated horrors people who don't value human life can wreak.

Let's face it. The public at large is open to groupthink persuasion. And nothing is more effective than a national crisis to show a nation's character. During 9-11, the nation stood together. Partisan thinking was gone. We all stood behind the president; we felt violated, enraged at the enemy. (Granted, doesn't take long to forget this and as the 9/11 memory fades, so does people's resolve/unity. But that's okay, that's part of being a nation of diversity) What does Spain do? Not lash out and see the horrific effect terrorism can have on free people. They become angry at the US. They don't denounce Al-Queda, so much as denounce Bush and America for "causing" this.

Definate diferent view/spin on things. One group sees the terrorists as the problem. The other group sees people who try to fight against it as the problem. I know whose side I'd be on.

135

Victory for Terrorism

by Yerusalyim in

the terrorists won a great victory in spain.

mind you, i'm all for the democratic process...it's great...and had the spanish decided to part ways with the us of it's own volition, great!...however, the socialists were project to not win a majority in this weekends election...that is until the terrorist attack.

now, with the socialist coming into power...and the promise to both withdraw the 1300 spanish soldiers from iraq and to part ways with the us on foriegn policy we can look for more such attacks in other countries.

blacksheep

"Two of the things I hope for from Kerry as a leader are the ability to make reasoned decisions when he has time, and to make good snap decisions when he doesn't have time."

Based on his past voting record in the Senate, his pushing his "honorable" service in Vietnam, only to come back and bitterly oppose the war and basically call other soldiers murderers, etc., I think what you'll get with Kerry is truly, a man of "nuance." Translated, this means someone who carefully attempts to discern whatever the prevailing political of the populace is.

Now that I think about it, someone who caters to the majority. That seems to be lauded in by some posters here from Europe. But that's politics. Not leadership.