Posts by Atlantis

10

WT from the 50's that says the only reason they don't kill apostates is ...

by kwintestal in

jw
friends

.

... because the law says that they can't.. can someone reference that for me?

i can't seem to find it anywhere.. kwin

Watchtower Recommends Jim Penton's Apostate Book!

by amiable in

i just came across a conversation from 2004 on another forum between a jewish student (i think) and a jw.

he mentioned another quote about henry ford but didn't read it or tell me where it was.

mr. pellechia called them unfortunate words.

The Jehovah's Witnesses used the Germany's national anthem in Germany! 1. Song 1928 Larger Zoom Image http://www.badongo.com/pic/155483 On June 25th 1933, in the Tennishallen at Wilmersdorf, Berlin, the WBTS organized a convention at which they presented a "Declaration of Facts", written by Rutherford himself. This declaration has been exposed as an attempt to suck up to the Nazi-regime in an attempt to regain their confiscated property in Magdeburg (see James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed). Cynicus 2. Song 1905-1 Larger Zoom Image http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/11014583579.jpg&s=x11 In 1976 one of the top-brass JWs from the German branch office of the WTBS, Konrad Franke, traveled throughout Germany giving a speech on the history of Jehovah's Witness in the Nazi-period. In it he flagrantly contradicted the story about the convention of 1933 in Wilmersdorf that had been told by the WBTS since 1934. Amongst others, Franke said in his lecture that the Tennishallen were decorated with swastika-flags and that the opening song was a very controversial one, set to the tune of the number one Nazi-hymn, 'Deutschland, Deutschland über alles' (which is incidentally still the German national anthem, albeit with different words). The composition by Haydn was adopted by the German government in 1922 as their national anthem. 3. Song 1905-2 Larger Zoom Image http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/11015522299.jpg&s=x11 The Awake! of July 8th, 1998, tries to control the damage in various respects (Norm has written an article about this as well). With regard to the song, nr. 64, "Zion's Herrliche Hoffnung", Awake! states that this song had been in the German WBTS songbooks since 1905 and that it was actually quite fitting that this song was picked for the opening of the convention due to its reference to the hope for Zion. 4. Song 1923-1 Larger Zoom Image http://www.badongo.com/pic/155527 Konrad Franke had told his audiences in 1976, however, that he and most of his fellow convention visitors were totally appalled by it, that they hadn't sung this song for years, and that many of the audience simply couldn't sing this song due to the emotions attached to it. Interestingly enough it has been tried since to verify the claim of the WBTS that song 64 was in the songbooks since 1905 and these attempts have failed so far. 5. Song 1923-2 Larger Zoom Image http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/11016280914.jpg&s=x11 On this page you'll find scanned images of the songbooks published by the WBTS in Germany of 1905, 1923, and 1928. In both the editions of 1905 and 1923 there's no song listed with the title of "Zion's herrliche Hoffnung". Only in the edition of 1928, six years after Haydn's composition was adopted as Germany's national anthem, this song appeared in the German songbook. 6. Song 1928-1 Larger Zoom Image http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/11016382031.jpg&s=x11 7. Song 1928-2 Larger Zoom Image http://www.hostmypic.info/uploads/7b42dfc52a.jpg Thanks Cynicus,

Excellent material about the Wilmersdorf convention. There is so much spin in the Watchtower literature about that convention held in 1933. In the Awake! of July 8th, 1998 article they presented two pictures from inside the hall allegedly taken during the convention. These pictures show no Nazi symbols anywhere. Konrad Franke was there himself, so he of course knew what he saw, but as far as I can tell he didn’t say if the Nazi symbols was outside or inside the hall. There are however a plausible explanations. The Nazi youth organization that had used the hall previous to the Witnesses (Bible students) had not been able to remove all their props for the first day of the Witness convention but was able to do so in the evening after the first day, thus no such symbols on the pictures.

Another example of the weasel worded ways of the Watchtower Society is how they constantly try to inflate the number of “Bible students” present at that convention. Even the above mentioned Awake! had a stab at this: quote:

*** g98 7/8 p. 12 Jehovah’s Witnesses—Courageous in the Face of Nazi Peril ***
Therefore, the Magdeburg office arranged a convention to make use of the German citizens’ right of petition. On short notice, Jehovah’s Witnesses from all over Germany were invited to the Wilmersdorfer Tennishallen in Berlin on June 25, 1933. About 5,000 delegates were expected. Despite the hostile atmosphere, more than 7,000 courageously attended.

It is really strange to observe this seemingly uncontrollable urge to lie that the Watchtower Society writers and leaders always display. They simply have to lie, even when it isn’t necessary. In the letter accompanying the “Declaration” which was “adopted” during the convention and sent to Hitler the number present was of course the round figure of 5000.
Here is the opening lines of the letter:

quote:

“Most Honored Mr. Chancellor:

On June 25, 1933, a 5,000-delegate convention of German Bible Students (Jehovah's Witnesses), representing several million Germans who have been friends and followers of this movement for many years, was held in the Sporthalle Wilmersdorf in Berlin.”

The usual Watchtower Society sense of proportions can be seen in this sentence: “representing several million Germans who have been friends and followers of this movement for many years,” What is that supposed to mean? 5000 Bible students “representing several million Germans”? No wonder Hitler and his underlings was less then impressed by such complete nonsense. I have no empirical data on this but other sources present at the convention has estimated that the number present was closer to 3000 than anything else. One thing is quite certain though, knowing the Watchtower way with numbers, we can be pretty sure that the 5000 figure given in the Hitler letter was pretty substantially inflated already. In the fifties the 5000 figure was already pumped up to 7000 and that’s usually the number they have stuck to. In all probability that’s 5000 too many.

Norm

(Click under heading of "Hitler Documents here: http://www.reexamine.org/wtobserver/ )

1

COMPARE-Kalindi's Cult

by DannyHaszard in

a seductive leader speaks with the voice of god, recruiting mid ...

san diego citybeat - ca,usa .

... we don't usually hear about cults until tragedy strikes: .

Atlantis

“Even though, all along, you’re being told it’s all up to you, there’s this sense that you’ve got to keep giving, that you can never give enough,”

Yep! Just like the Watchtower.

Thanks Danny!

13

New Bible Teach Book Question

by XBEHERE in

*** bh chap.

1 p. 10 par.

7 what is the truth about god?

Atlantis

Sgt. Pepper:

Hello and welcome! Good to read your comments. Your welcome for the scan. Any time old chap. my pleasure!

Cheers!

42

Trying to find cross v. stake topics

by Sad emo in

can anybody please help me out with some links on the cross versus torture stake debate either on jwd or external sites?

i know there was a thread on here not so long ago but i can't find it.. also, if any of you long time posters can recommend any outstanding ones from the deepest recesses of jwd which you might have kept as favourites, i would be most grateful.

i have to go offline for a while now so many thanks in advance for your help.. emo

Atlantis

depictions of Jesus' death in our publications are merely reasonable artictic renderings of the scene NOT STATEMENTS OF ANATOMIC ABSOLUTES!

42

Trying to find cross v. stake topics

by Sad emo in

can anybody please help me out with some links on the cross versus torture stake debate either on jwd or external sites?

i know there was a thread on here not so long ago but i can't find it.. also, if any of you long time posters can recommend any outstanding ones from the deepest recesses of jwd which you might have kept as favourites, i would be most grateful.

i have to go offline for a while now so many thanks in advance for your help.. emo

Atlantis

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/jw_cross.htm Jehovah's Witnesses use of Crosses

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was tortured on a stake as opposed to "Christendom's" belief that Jesus Christ was crucified upon a cross.

"After Jesus had been passed from one to another, the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, on the insistence of the religiously inspired mob, took the line of least resistance and sentenced Jesus to death. As a consequence, Jesus died in disgrace on a stake, and his body was placed in a tomb." ("Mankind's Search for God", page 254)

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society goes to great pains throughout many of it's publications, to show the diligent bible student that it's translation to torture stake is the correct one. The Watchtower (Feb. 1 1968) Says:

"True Christians NEVER REVERED THE CROSS OR REGARDED IT AS A SYMBOL OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY. Many persons contend that the cross is used by the churches because Christ died on one. That is what the churches say, BUT IT IS NOT THE TRUTH." (emphasize mine)

The Witnesses will argue that the cross is a "Pagan symbol", they will say that possessing honoring and wearing crosses are acts of "idolatry" The Watchtower (Aug. 15, 1987 pg. 23-24) says:

"Bear in mind, how the cross has been used down through history as a object of pagan worship and of superstitious awe, could wearing a cross, even as a ornament, be harmonized with the admonition of the apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 10:14 ‘Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry’?"

Has the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society always held that Jesus Christ was tortured on a stake? Apparently not!! We know for a fact that for at least fifty-seven years [from 1872 up to 1929] the Jehovah’s Witnesses revered the cross in there publications and regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity. We also know that the Bible the Witnesses printed and used for the first 78 years since Russell founded the Cult, promoted the belief in Christ’s death on a cross. The following is broken in to two sections:

Images of the Cross Found in Used by Watchtower Society:

The Term "Cross" Found in the Pre_1950 Watchtower Printings of the Bible:

IMAGES OF THE CROSS FOUND IN USED BY WATCHTOWER SOCIETY:

Charles Taze Russell's [the original founder of the Jehovah's Witness] gravesite and the monument known as the "Watchtower pyramid" at the: United Cemeteries 226 Cemetery Ln. Pittsburgh, PA 15237-2722 Tel (412) 931-1017 The "Cross and Crown" emblem Was a favorite of Russell, it appeared on many early Watchtower publications.
	Watchtower's pyramid memorial, with cross and crown emblem and capstone. Note Russell's headstone in background.	Close-up of pyramid with cross and crown emblem.	Cross and crown emblem is on all four sides.
TO THE RIGHT is a scan the cover of the October 1 1907 issue of "Zions Watch Tower". Next to it is the April 1, 1930 issue of the "Watch Tower". In the right hand corner of both of these issues is the cross and crown symbol . If you look at the windows of the tower itself you will see that they are also in the form of a Cross. This scan is close up and in a 8x10 size, it is perfect for printing. "Nor can the rewards of present temporal prosperity in worldly things be expected by those who are running for the prize of this high calling to glory. honor, immortality as kings and priests unto God; for the way to the crown is the way of the cross" ("Zions Watch Tower" April 15, 1907 p. 302)

	Beginning with its issue of October 15, 1931, The Watchtower no longer bore the cross and crown symbol on its cover. Between January 1, 1891 and October 15, 1931 (40 years) every issue of the "Watch Tower", had the cross and crown symbol in the right hand upper corner, this amounts to over 960 issues.

1907

In the early days of the society, they frequently took out full page advertisements in secular newspapers, often printing articles written by "Pastor Russell". To the right are two 1907 editions of the "National Labor Tribune", note the Watchtower cross and crown symbol and the picture of Charles Taze Russell.
	1907 editions of the "National Labor Tribune"

1907-1911

To the right are the covers from the 1907 and 1911, Watchtower convention souvenir booklets. Both covers have the Watchtower cross and crown symbol prominently displayed. Both of these items are part of the authors personal collection. These scans are in a 8x10 size, it is perfect for printing.
	1907 Convention cover	1911 Convention cover

1910

Here is an original Jehovah's Witness Christmas card dated December 1910. These old Witness Christmas cards are very very hard to find. This particular card was not printed by Watchtower society, but by a privet individual. It was common back then for Witnesses to print their own stationary items and cards using the Watchtower Cross and crown. This card measures approximately 3 inches by 6 inches. This scan is close up and in it's actual size, it is perfect for printing

Above is a scan of a 1910 Jehovah's Witnesses Christmas card, it is part of the authors personal collection. note the Cross and crown in the center.

1911

Here is an original RARE Cross and Crown Postcard dated January 3, 1911. These postcards are very hard to find. It has a personal message on the back from one Bible Student (as Jehovah's Witnesses were known back then) to another. The card was not printed by Watchtower but by someone named A. H. Moore in Columbus Ohio. It was common back then for Witnesses to print their own stationary items using the Watchtower Cross and crown.
	1911 Postcard	Close up of the Cross and crown

1912

Here is a scan of the cover of a RARE and beautiful color Watchtower, it is dated April 15, 1912. This Watchtower was a special report on the Foreign Mission. This scan is in a 8x10 size, it is perfect for printing.
	1912 Report	Close up of the Cross and crown

1914

This item, up for bid; is an official, mailable 'Program' for the Convention' that was held in Clinton, Iowa-June 28th to July 5th, 1914. This little gem, when folded, is regular letter size at approx. 4" X 6". This packet's diecut, card stock exterior is slightly pinkish in color--and, unfolded, the 7 pages span to nearly 30 inches in length.
	The front of the 1914 program	This is the back of the 1914 program, on it we can see the the Cross and crown symbol

1914

1914 Bay Area Congregation Schedule, this little booklet (3&3/4"X 6&1/4") lists the summer-into-fall activities, information and announcements for the 'Oakland Ecclesia' of the IBSA, for 1914
	1914 Congregation Schedule

1917

1916-Christmastide-1917 by the Watchtower society signed by Charles Taze Russell. A Christian greetings and best wishes to "The New Creation". This Card is part of the authors personal collection. The Card measures approximately 3-1/2 inches by 5-1/2 inches. These scans are close up and in their actual size, they are perfect for printing
	In the upper Left hand corner is the Watchtower crown and cross, Christmas bells in upper right hand corner.	This is the reverse side of the Watchtower's 1917 Christmas card.

1917

The 1917 edition of the "Finished Mystery" had a advertisement in the back for another watchtower book called the "The Atonement Between GOD and MAN". This advertisement depicted a kneeling Christ and a Cross.

1921

Here a is ribbon that advertised the 1921 convention assembly of I. B. S. A. (International Bible Students Association) "Jehovah's Witnesses" titled: I. B. S. A. CONVENTION. This ribbon was worn by those in attendance at the Detroit, Michigan convention held July 1st to 4th, 1921. . The local I. B. S. A were very joyful to have there brothers from the local facilities of the Watchtower Society to share the 1921 convention with them in the home city of Detroit, Mich.

1921

1921 edition of the "The Harp of God" by "Judge" Rutherford. The "Judge" was the successor to Russell and the second President of the Watchtower Society.
	The opening page if the 1921 edition of the "The Harp of God"	A image of the Crucifixion of Christ found on page 114	There is a nice poem honoring the Cross of Christ on page 141

THE POEM HONORING THE CROSS: "In the cross of Christ I glory, Tow’ring o’er the wreck of time; All the light of sacred story Gather round its head sublime." ("The Harp of God" Page 141) A EXAMPLE OF THE STATEMENTS HONORING THE CROSS: "The ransom-price was provided at the cross. The cross of Christ is the great pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiate the hopes of men." ("The Harp of God" Page 141)

1928

1928 Revised Edition of the

"The Harp of God" by "Judge" Rutherford

The opening page if the 1928 edition of the "The Harp of God"

A image of the Crucifixion of Christ on page 113

1928

Here is an original RARE Watchtower Studies in the Scriptures Order Slip with a Cross and Crown on it published by Watchtower. This slip was designed to order the Seven Volumes of the Studies in the Scriptures and the Harp of God so it would date to around 1928.
	This is a 1928 order form, notice the Cross and Crown in the center.	this is a close up of the words and the Cross and Crown.

1929

The 1929 Edition of "Creation" by "Judge" Rutherford
	The opening page if the 1929 edition of the "Creation"	A color image of the Crucifixion of Christ on page 265	A nice color image of the Cross of Christ on page 336

1930

To the right are three examples of pre-1930 solid gold Watchtower Cross and Crown pendants. This symbol barring the cross was made in to rings, tie clasps, necklaces and bracelets.

"In the early part of our 20th century. . . . The cross was still prominent in their thinking. Some even wore a cross-and-crown lapel emblem, while others sought the respectability accorded Christendom." {WT May 1 1989 3}

1943

Here a is ribbon from a 1943 watchtower convention. At the top we see the Cross and Crown symbol. In 1931, the Watchtower had condemned the cross and crown symbol as "Pagan", but as we can see many witnesses were reluctant to give it up. This scan is close up and in it's actual size, it is perfect for printing

1993

To the Right is a scan from the 1993 Watchtower booklet "How Can Blood Save Your Life" (p. 7), it contains a picture of early Christians dying on crosses in the arena. This amounts to an inadvertent admission that Jesus did die on a cross.
		Above is a close up of the picture.

THE TERM "CROSS" FOUND IN THE PRE-1950 WATCHTOWER PRINTINGS OF THE BIBLE:

In the years before 1969 the Interlinear of choice for the Jehovah's Witnesses was the Emphatic Diaglott. Benjamin Wilson authored and self-published the "Emphatic Diaglott" in the 1860s, the interlinear Bible translation which was so essential to Watchtower theology that Wilson's printing plates were obtained after his death. for many year the Witnesses printed there own editions of this Bible, this is one of them.
	The opening page of a 1942 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the Emphatic Diaglott.	In this scan are some example of the use of the term "Cross". Look at Mark 15: 24,25, 30, 32, and in the footnote for verse 24.	This scan is of the definition of the word "Cross" found in the "dictionary" in the back of the Emphatic Diaglott. We note that it describes a Cross as a "T", " t ", or a "X"
J. F. Rutherford (the second president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society) said this about the Emphatic Diaglott: "The Emphatic Diaglott is one of the purest translations of the New Testament. It is translated from the original Greek. The Vatican Manuscript was chiefly used in its preparation, reference being had also to the Sinaitic and other manuscripts. It expresses the thought in modern language and greatly aids the Greek and English student in studying the New Testament. (Creation; 1927; p. 119)

THE KJV: In the years before 1950 the Bible that was accepted, printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the King James Version (KJV). The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this popular Protestant Bible
	The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the King James Version.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:32, 35, 40
J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the King James Version: "Doubtless there has never been a more masterful and perfect English publication than the Authorized Version of the Bible." (Creation; 1927; p. 117)

THE ASV In the years between 1944 and the late nineteen seventies one of the Bible that was accepted, Printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the American Standard Version (ASV). The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this Protestant Bible. .	.
	The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the American Standard Version.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:40
.J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the American Standard Version: "The commission of reviser who prepared the Revised Version from 1870 forward had access to these manuscripts, however. The ancient manuscripts were studied, together with the various versions; and the greatest possible care and means were employed to bring forth a Bible expressing, as nearly as possible, the thought expressed by the original manuscripts" (Creation; 1927; p. 118)

THE BLI : The "The Bible in Living English" (BLI) translated by Steven T. Byington (not to be confused with Taylor's "Living Bible"). Byington began translating the opening chapters of Matthewin 1898. He continued slowly with the project until 1940 when he was able to devote most of his time to the work and bring it to completion. After his death in 1957 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society acquired the publication rights, but the translation was withheld from publication until 1972.
	The opening page of a 1972 edition of The Bible in Living English.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27: 32, 40

13

New Bible Teach Book Question

by XBEHERE in

*** bh chap.

1 p. 10 par.

7 what is the truth about god?

Atlantis

2

Other worlds and their inhabitants! (Golden Age scan).

by Atlantis in

question: what kind of god is jehovah according to the golden age magazine?

answer: "this mighty god, jehovah, self centered, self contained, is ours, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

" how does webster's dictionary define the words "self centered?

Atlantis

Question: What kind of God is Jehovah according to the Golden Age magazine? Answer: "This mighty God, Jehovah, self centered, self contained, is ours, the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not." How does Webster's Dictionary define the words "self centered?" 1. stationary or unmoving, as a center or point which other things move. (2) occupied or concerned only with one's own affairs; egocentric; selfish. Question: As man progresses and is able to see farther into space, will we find inhabitants on other planets? Answer: "Doubtless divine methods in connection with other worlds and their inhabitants will display the manifold wisdom of God." "we understand the Bible to indicate that while the permission of evil in the earth was wise, it will not necessarily be wise nor expedient for any reason to permit a similar reign of sin and death in any other of the millions of worlds, in connection with their ordering or development and their peopling with glorious creatures who will show forth the praises of the great Creator without passing through experiences with sin and death such as have been permitted in connection with the humanity of earth." Golden Age 1924-Feb-27-p.348

7

Can the WT answer these questions about the 144,000 and the great crowd?

by Honesty in

w02 5/1 p. 30 questions from readers .

*** w hen

john saw the "great crowd" rendering sacred service in jehovahs temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?revelation 7:9-15. .

Atlantis

Honesty:

Beautifully done! Thank you for that well prepared research!

Cheers!

15

Who has the new publication: What does the bible REALLY teach?? Need Scan

by Lady Liberty in

can anyone out there scan from the first chapter of what does the bible really teach book?

it is a newer publication.

aparently on another thread, chapter one explains why questions are good to ask of your religion.

Atlantis

The first 2 chapters you say?

No problem old chap!

If this is not enough, then let me know and I'll do the whole blooming book if necessary!