Here's a decent (online) station:
Delicious Agony Prog-Rock Radio
And...I just ordered this:
Saw the Aquarium Rescue Unit a few years back in Memphis (see, WOW). I think they may have broken-up (?) or aren't touring right now. I also have their guitarist's (Jimmy Herring) solo cd in the mail: "Endangered Species".
"Glass Harp" the prog-rock band):
Phil Keaggy's Homepage
(This guy's been world-acclaimed among "the pros" (other guitarists) for years & years). Saw him three times @ Don't Miss This Dude In Concert!!! even if you ain't religious....plz!
rick
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rick_here
JoinedPosts by rick_here
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66
recommend some new music
by tijkmo in.
have you found some new band or artist that you would reccomend we listen to...for this to work we would need to know what style of music you normally listen to and then we can know if its what we would enjoy...eg.
i like pink floyd...genesis...yes...etc.....................and have just found mercury rev......brill
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rick_here
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
First (and foremost); thanks to everyone for your replies!
To Leolaia,
for the "scan" of a page from Davies' & Allison's: A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to Saint Matthew. (Much needed help, for further studies).
Euripides,
"What traditional interpretation are you now 'agnostic' about?"
Basically, and as it may have "shown", I've been essentially confused about this passage (and specifically regarding the Greek-phrase, above) as it has been traditionally interpreted. Without going into what I've found on 1st century (Jewish) marriage customs, for now anyway; there is some evidence that the passage can be interpreted "non-traditionally" (and/or to mean something different). This other interpretation is contingent on the relationship -- and relevance -- of the Essenes in the NT Era. I believe they were much more "influential" than is normally acknowledged and/or understood. I also see this is a kind of "sub-topic" for this thread that would need to be developed.
Narkissos,
"Just to add that there is a textual problem in v. 16 bearing on the virgin birth issue in the genealogy, but I guess it is not what Rick had in mind here... (According to the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, v. 16 reads: "Joseph, to whom was betrothed Mary the virgin, begot Jesus who is called the Christ.")"
Precisely.
This, combined with early reports of the Gospel of Matthew being "originally written in Hebrew" (or Aramaic/Syriac?) and the possibility of the Sinaitic Syriac being more "accurate" to the original composition (?).
Following up on 1st century (Jewish) marriage customs; a footnote in Craig S. Keen's A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Eerdmans, 1999, p. 92) has,
"A recently discovered [1st century Judean] marriage contract indicating prior cohabitation [between the 'betrothed']...also assumed a greater likelihood that the woman would get pregnant before the wedding," (Keen citing Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine by Tal Ilan, Hendrickson, p. 100).
I just got Tal Ilan's book from Amazon.com today and haven't had time to look at it. (I ordered the book because I couldn't find any significant related information on the web). In any event, certain passages from Josephus about "marrying Essenes" fits into the equation (of my train of thought).
I'll be back...soon. Hopefully with some more info that we can sink our teeth into, as it were.
rick
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
Howdy Gumby-
Um, well, lemme see here....hmmmmm.....
How's about, "Were Joseph & Mary a in a 'sub-sect' of the Essenes?"
(Alex, in the proper question form-answer), LoL.
Thanx. -
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
PS-
Other than the details outlined so far...I'm still interested in doing an online exegesis of the passage -- with y'all's help (that would be). -
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
Greetings Narkissos-
Nope: en gastri ekhein (lit. "to have in belly/womb") is a fixed idiom for "be pregnant" (e.g. Herodotus III,32; and LXX Genesis 16,5).
LXX in the Greek is: εν γαστρι εχει. And the English translation of Herodotus is also open for interpretation, imo. (However, I can't access Herodotus right now @ Perseus). If I'm not mistaken, Herodotus has εχουσα εν γαστρι.
I'll concede that in the English idiom/translation "[to] be pregnant" (or) "to be with child" are considered acceptable. But I can't help but see a potential (if not probable?) bias here, based on traditional renderings of the phrase. If it were translated otherwise, it would threaten "orthodox doctrine."
One other thing that is often overlooked is that there are words in the Greek passage (in question) that have no other apearances in Greek literature. And what few there are; we have been dependent on English translations as they have come to us -- without question.
Matthew's Gospel, if indeed Matthew was a tax-collector and the author of this Gospel as traditionally known (which I accept, btw); tax-collectors of that era knew various forms of "short-hand (writing)" which was needed for their job descriptions and performance.
I've wondered if Matthew's Greek might reflect an "abbreviation tendency" and consider this as not only a possibility, but as a possible "key" to understanding his writing (in Greek). I don't want to belabor this point. But I would like to emphasize that centuries-old understandings, based on possible faulty "translations of the Greek" would be unreliable.
If you have further input for rebuttle, I welcome them (please)! As of now I'm unconvinced (agnostic) of traditionanl interpretations of the text. My only "debate" has to do with finding the true exegesis of this passage.
rick
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
PS-
I have other exegetical work (as tentative translations) of this passage, taking into account my "background studies." I think (and hope!) some of you may find this interesting.
Leolaia and Narkissos --- where are you???
(we've met before)....
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Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)
by rick_here ini've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.
this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.
namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).
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rick_here
Greetings-
I've been @ JWDF before, having been "referred" by an Ex-JW I met at Beliefnet.com. This person said I'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff I am. Namely, the "historical-critical studies of the Bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of Christianity). In any event, I'm an ex-fundamentalist Christian and can't quite classify what version of a Christian I am right now...I just know I am one, LoL. (Be that as it may)...and Praise Jesus!
As a student-hobbyist of "the background of the Bible" I've been especially interested in The Intertestamental Period and/or the Jewish Apocalyptic Literature of that time-frame as it has relevance for the NT Era (and to the NT itself).
A prominent "sect" (as Josephus coined it) of this time were the Essenes. They are a subject unto themselves and scholars are coming up with more on them continuously; new books and articles are being released as I post.
But what does this have to do with Matt. 1:18-25? and "the virgin birth" of Jesus? (as it has been traditionally understood)? I CAN'T TELL...which is why I've started this thread!
I'll suffice it to say (in summary) that certain marriage customs of the Essenes -- and undeniable "links" (for lack of vocabulary) -- between the Essenes and the Early/earliest Christians are simply, "there." And not to mention the various divisions or "sects" within the Essenes themselves.
This must sound like Hogde-Podge. And I'd have to agree that it is in that we are only gaining more information/data on the Era of Jesus... However, I've been working on an exegesis of our passage in question and am at a kind of stand-still in that I'm only a beginner/self-taught in NT (koine) Greek.
I'm seriously doubting that English Bibles (all of them) have the accurate translation of this passage (in several ways that I won't go into for now).
One particular phrase I'm having problems in translating is from Matt. 1:18:
εν γαστρι εχουσα which is normally rendered as "pregnant with child" in most Bibles. How do they come up with this? (I don't know?). The Greek words for "child" and "pregnant" just aren't in the text!
My (tentative) literal translation/paraphrase has this as: "in [her] womb, having ability coming out-of." Stated another way, this phrase meant that [Mary] "became able to have a child" -- she had her first menses or became menstrual (a woman).
I'll leave it here, for now -- thanx!
rick
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The Book of Enoch
by VM44 inthe book of enoch has been mentioned here before.
i have some questions i would like to post here, and would very much like to read what people here have to say in answer to them.. .
3) did the book of enoch influence the writings of the new testement?.
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rick_here
Greetings-
While I've been "lurking" JWDF ( and bookmarking various threads ) -- I haven't been posting for some time now.
I've ( finally ) just ordered:
"1 Enoch: 1 Enoch"
by George W.E. Nickelsburg
"Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism"
by Alan F. Segal
"One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism"
by Larry Hurtado
"Did God Have A Wife?: Archaeology And Folk Religion In Ancient Israel"
by William G. Dever
( and am about half-way through ):
"The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God"
by Margaret Barker
In any event, if I can get the "formatting right again" ( here @ JWDF ); I'm looking forward to posting & discussing things-related....
Till next time, then!
rick
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Enoch - Transferred so as not to see death
by nowino inwanted to know what anyone here thinks or has studied on enoch and him being "transferred so as not to see death" and whether or not anyone believes john the baptist might have been him reincarnated or sent back in.
also if he was the only one in the bible not to see death.
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rick_here
Greetings folks (I haven't been "around" jwdf in a while).
This link would explain my view on:
Were Elijah and Enoch Raptured to Heaven?
By John L. Bray
Hope my formatting "works", LoL! -
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John Dominic Crossan
by kgfreeperson ini've been listening to john dominic crossan on the radio and am fascinated.
what are your opinions of him as a biblical scholar?
.
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rick_here
Narkissos-
I've been kinda busy and generally agree with your last post (seeing that you know your theology)! Sorry, so slow.
I don't really want to go into Christological differences among the theologians but would like to ask you one thing about Bultmann and Crossan: Would you say they are similar in their views on the resurrection of Jesus? From what I can recall (offhand) they are/were very much alike in this....
Just replying, for the most part.
(thanx, if you have time to reply, etc.)