Wanted to know what anyone here thinks or has studied on Enoch and him being "transferred so as not to see death" and whether or not anyone believes John the Baptist might have been him reincarnated or sent back in. Also if he was the only one in the bible not to see death.
Enoch - Transferred so as not to see death
by nowino 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
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fleaman uk
From what i remember as to the JW standpoint,wasnt he "Put to sleep"so as to avoid hideous torture?
Never heard the John the Baptist reincarnation story though.....
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mkr32208
This to me never made since if their is no eternal soul... If he didn't see death how is it that he died? Is he still alive somewhere?
If he was to be "Reincarnated" as John the B. then he must have been dead at some point correct so how did he not "see" death did it sneak up on him?
Sounds like more bible bs to me!
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nowino
Thank you for your replies. I never heard anything about the torture. No, my thought was that if he was transferred so as not to see death, then perhaps he became a spirit being and then was perhaps sent back in. The reason for thinking that he might have been John the Baptist is the scripture that "there was no greater man than he". And if the only one in the bible that never saw death was Enoch perhaps he was used again as John. I've always wondered about this. Many of Johns followers thought that he was one of the former prophets, so......I don't know. Thanks for your thoughts and I welcome more.
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euripides
Enoch wasn't the only one according to OT legend not to undergo the usual death.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
This puts Enoch and Elijah into a very special club, and how bad would it have been for Enoch to have come back only to lose his head?!
Euripides
PS Welcome to the board.
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Midget-Sasquatch
There's some nice information in this posting by Leolaia.(The sub-heading of Enoch is partway in)
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Leolaia
Reincarnation was not part of early Jewish religion. The closest concept in the Hellenistic world is the transmigration of souls which is similar but not the same as reincarnation. For instance, according to the apologists Simon Magus (cf. Acts 8:9-24) claimed that his wife Helena's soul has passed restlessly from one person to another over the millenia and had once been Helen of Troy. Transmigration of souls is a distinctly Greek, Platonic concept, and assumes an anthropology which is more dualistic than commonly found in Judaism and Christianity outside of gnosticism. It is also distinct from reincarnation in having the souls wander in the material world like ghosts from one body to another, and may leave the body voluntarily, whereas in Eastern reincarnation the movement is more restricted to bodies themselves and may involve palingenesis.
The passage about Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 is clearly not alluding to the transmigration of Enoch's soul. It rather depends on the Jewish haggadaic legend of Enoch most prominently featured in 1 Enoch and Jubilees which claims that Enoch was taken bodily into heaven by angels into the heavenly paradise. The same thing happened with Elijah -- 2 Kings 1-2 describes how the divine chariot lifted him up bodily into heaven. Malachi 4:5 prophesies his return to herald the great "Day of Yahweh" and the expectation in the gospels that John the Baptist was Elijah is based on this. Jesus declares in Matthew 11:14 that "he is the Elijah who was to come", while John the Baptist denies this in John 1:21. In the gospel of Luke, where John the Baptist is given an explicit birth narrative, he is not claimed to actually be Elijah but only a prophet "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). In the transfiguration traditions, Elijah also appeared with Moses on the mount (cf. Mark 9:4-11) to the apostles; Moses' soul also was believed to have been taken up into heaven at the time (cf. the Assumption of Moses). As for Enoch, we can read such statements in the literature of the second century BC to the second century AD, and in Jewish tradition:
"Winds caused me [Enoch] to fly and hastened me and lifted me up into heaven" (1 Enoch 14:8).
"Noah ... lived longer on the earth than other people, except Enoch because of his righteousness in which he was perfect; for Enoch's work was something created as a warning to the generations of the world, so that he should report all deeds of each generation on the day of judgment" (Jubilees 10:17).
"He was 'transferred,' that is, he changed his abode and journeyed as an emigrant from the mortal life into the immortal" (Philo of Alexandria, Change of Names, 38).
"He lived three hundred and sixty-five years and then returned to the divinity, which is why nothing is recorded concerning his death... However, concerning Elijah and Enoch, who lived before the Flood, it is written in the sacred books that they became invisible, and no one knows of their death" (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 1:85, 9:28).
"And Gabriel carried me up, like a leaf carried by the wind. He moved me along and put me in front of the face of the Lord...And the Lord said to the angel Michael: Go and extract Enoch from his earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory" (2 Enoch 21:5, 22:8).
The epistle of Jude in the NT is directly dependent on 1 Enoch and quotes it verbatim in parts (cf. Jude 14-15 = 1 Enoch 1:9), so there is no question of its influence. The "Book of Similitudes" in 1 Enoch is also important because it describes Enoch's return into the world as the "Son of Man" in judgment on the earth. This notion is dependent on the idea of Enoch as the heavenly scribe, living in heaven during all the generations of the earth, writing down their deeds in the Book of Life (cf. Jubilees 10:17, quoted above). In fact, according to Jewish tradition, Enoch was the person who invented writing. The "Book of Watchers" thus refers to him as "Enoch the scribe" or "the scribe of righteousness (1 Enoch 12:3-4; 14:24-15:1). 1 Enoch 8:1-2 thus refers to "the book of the tablets of heaven" and Jubilees 4:17-21 says: "He was the first of mankind born on the earth who learned writing and instruction and wisdom from among the sons of men the signs of the sky according to the fixed pattern of their months...He was the first to write a testimony...He was with the angels of God six jubilees of years, and they showed him everything which is on earth and in the heavens, and the rule of the sun, and he wrote down everything". In the Targum of Pseudo-Jonathan, Enoch became the angel Metratron:
"And Enoch served faithfully before God and behold he was not with the inhabitants of the earth, for he had perished and ascended into heaven and he called his name Metratron, the great scribe" (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, Gen. 5:24).
The same tradition appears in 3 Enoch: "The angel Metatron, Prince of the Divine Presence, said to me: 'When the Holy One, blessed be he, removed me from the generation of the Flood, he bore me up on the stormy wings of the Shekineh to the highest heaven and brought me into the great palaces in the height of the heaven" (3 Enoch 7:1). Similarly, the Genesis Apocryphon states that Enoch "is beloved and since with the holy ones is his lot apportioned and they inform him of everything" (2:20-21), that is, the deeds of those on the earth. According to 1 Enoch 51-71, the resurrection of the dead will occur on Judgment Day and the Son of Man shall open his books and judge them; there is a very similar concept in Daniel and Revelation. Other apocalyptic writings attribute similar roles to Adam (cf. the Testament of Abraham), Moses (cf. the Jewish haggada), and other OT patriarchs who were assumed to heaven.
Nowhere in the mass of tradition of Enoch was there any suggestion of reincarnation or transmigration of his soul.
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nowino
Thank you very much Leolaia. Gives me a lot to think about and look into to.
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upside/down
If Enoch didn't "see death", and was as the Dubs teach "taken" by God. Than he never paid for his Adamic sin. Divine justice being what it is must be satisfied, right? So than how does this sitch work itself out. Does Enoch get a "get out of jail free" card?
Why the hell did he get spared? So what if he died a violent death, since when is J averse to this?
Something here don't add up...
u/d
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nowino
Good point upside/down, which would fit well with him coming back in and having to die a human death. Jesus died a terribly, terribly tortuous death. Now you really got me thinking.