Posts by slimboyfat

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

I understand that Trinitarians apply subordinationist passages to Jesus’ “human nature” but can you really do that in this passage? Surely the passage is talking about God teaching the Son over aeons of time. Or would you argue this passage only refers to Jesus learning from God as a human during his earthy life? The book of John so often refers to Jesus’ life and relationship with God in heaven (John 1.18; 17.5, and many more), it would be odd if this verse did not refer to that age old relationship between God and his Son too.

In the culture of the time it was completely taken for granted that a father and son are not equals, because a father is older than his son, and he is wiser and more knowledgable than his son. This context underlies all the descriptions of Jesus and God as Father and Son. It’s only later Christians came to define God and his Son in terms of essence and nature and substance and begin to deny basic understanding that a father is superior to his son in age, wisdom and knowledge.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

This is not a verse that I’ve seen feature heavily in Trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the Trinity. If there are any around I’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the Trinity.

The verse says:

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

As far as I know there are no major textual or translation issues, so the verse is straightforward in that sense.

What strikes me is the final phrase: “just as the Father taught me”. JWs believe that Jesus is God’s first creation and that God taught his Son everything over billions of years in his prehuman life. When do Trinitarians think that God taught his Son?

One commentary makes the statement:

but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things; this he says not as lessening himself, or making himself inferior to the Father, but to show the excellency of his doctrine, and to assert the original, authority, and divinity of it; suggesting that it was not an human doctrine, or a device of man's, or his own, as man, but was divine, and from God

But the impression of the verse is that the Father is superior in knowledge and wisdom compared with the Son and that he taught the Son everything. So this commentary seems to raise the problem with the verse for the Trinity without offering a solution.

40

Dates and times

by jhine in

last night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .

we have been working through the whole letter.

verses 1-11 start with .

slimboyfat

1 Cor 7:29?

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

Thanks Earnest, that’s what I thought the teaching was. I take it that’s what Russell also taught, and only changed in the 1930s when the new teaching of the “great crowd” was developed. I think the old teaching is closer to the Christadelphian understanding of Armageddon. I wonder if the Society will move closer to that view.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

Is it worth pointing out that when Rutherford wrote his booklet Millions Now Living Will Never Die there were fever than 100,000 Bible Students worldwide and they expected to go to heaven, not live forever on earth. The “millions” who were expected to survive Armageddon were currently unbelievers who would accept the truth in the new world in large numbers and never die.

Have I got that right?

Could Watchtower be working its way back to that “understanding” of millions of non believers surviving Armageddon?

40

Dates and times

by jhine in

last night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .

we have been working through the whole letter.

verses 1-11 start with .

slimboyfat

Did the apostle Paul apologise for telling people it was better not to get married because the end was near in 1 Corinthians 7?

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

"JW's used to believe you had to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon, now JW's believe baptised JW's and some who react favourably during the Great Tribulation may get saved meaning exJW's, or family members of JW' etc no longer HAVE to die prior to Armageddon to ensure they are in paradise as they now can react to the events of the Great Tribulation favourably and be saved".

So non believing relatives will have a better chance of surviving because they can still repent after the Great Tribulation has started but they would still need to repent before Armageddon in order to survive? That doesn’t sound like as good a chance as somebody who is resurrected in the new system and has 1000 years to mend their ways. If I was a believing JW I would be disappointed because it sounded like the GB were saying that non believing relatives would have the same chance whenever they died. But if it’s as you describe then wouldn’t many JWs still not wonder if non believing relatives would be better off dying and getting resurrected?

2911

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

There’s no payment for subscribers, only views. The only thing he’s done for a month is post a comedy video and somewhat disturbing conversation with his daughter. There’s a lot of mugs around, over 350 of them, is all I can say. What is the story he tells himself about how things are going? Does he imagine in his own head that he’s doing a good job and people are right to pay him? Because at one point I’m sure he really did believe he was doing “important” work. Or is he completely cynical at this point and laughing at his patrons behind their back?

Is Kim okay?

If she’s just moved on with her life that’s a good thing.

2911

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

Lordy, this could drag on for years at this rate.

His cynicism in collecting money for a cause his heart is no longer in should be plain as day. I guess this whole saga has taught me there truly is a sucker born every minute, and there are those who are able and feel no compunction about making money off the gullible.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

Okay this is all rather confusing, perhaps because the Watchtower itself doesn’t make sense.

I guess you could flip it on its head and say that another way non believers could be treated the same whether they die before Armageddon or not is to reduce drastically the number of people JWs anticipate will be resurrected. That would make it equal, but it’s hardly a reason for JWs to stop worrying about non believing relatives, because it would reduce their chances of surviving all round.

Notsure, can you explain, if the change isn’t that non believers will survive Armageddon comparable to how non believers in general will be resurrected -

Then can you succinctly explain what do you think is the change?

Incidentally, not all millenarian groups anticipate that all wicked people will die at Armageddon. As I understand it, Christadelphians think the judgment will take place during the thousand year reign, not before. Armageddon is a great battle where Jesus establishes his kingdom on earth, it’s not particularly a time of judgement for the wicked. Although people will die in Armageddon, they don’t expect the wicked to be completely destroyed at Armageddon because the judgment comes later during the thousand years. Could Watchtower be moving to that kind of model?