Posts by slimboyfat

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

slimboyfat

Vanderhoven7, you say:

JWs have as much of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as they do with the angel Gabriel.Imagine not even being able to say "Thank you Jesus for dying for my sins.

Where did Paul ever say “thank you Jesus” as you suggest? Aren’t JWs here following the pattern Paul set of thanking God, or thanking God in the name of Jesus, and through Jesus? But not “thank you Jesus”.

'I give thanks to God always for you.' (I Cor. 1:4)

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all? (I Cor. 14:18)

Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.' (I Cor. 15:57)

Thanks be to God who in our Lord Jesus Christ always leads us in triumph.’ (2 Cor 2:14)

Thanks be to God who puts the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus.' (2 Cor. 8:16)

'Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift.' (2 Cor. 9:15)

'I thank my God in all my remembrance of you. (Phil. 1:3)

'We give thanks to God always for you all ... remembering before God our Father all your work? (I Thess 1:2-3)

'For what thanksgiving can we render to God for you?' (I Thess 3:9)

'We are bound to give thanks to God always for you.' (2 Thess 1:3)

'Always and in everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus

Christ to God the Father: (Eph. 5:20)

We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you?' (Col. 1:3)

'To the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ. Amen. (Rom. 16:27)

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (Eph. 1:3)

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

slimboyfat

The old classic From House to House here at 5.45

https://youtu.be/9P6HNA-G3DI?si=VRa-6Gre_M54WyoM

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

slimboyfat

Well they should have done if they were following theocratic direction proper. 🤓

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

slimboyfat

Some of them are pretty good. In general I prefer the old song book, but a few of the new songs are good too. I like The Victory Song. I met a disassociated person in the town last week and he told me he has old records with the old songs on them and The Victory Song is one of his favourites. We both sang the song in the middle of the town and we both knew the words. His wife was there. She was looking on her phone at the time.

I used to like the old song about increasing light. I think it was song 111 in the old book and we used to sing it at conventions when a new teaching was released. But a lot of the song have been modified and I don’t think they are improvements. For example Stay Awake Stan Firm Grow Mighty has both modified lyrics and tune and it’s not as good as the old one. I sing the old lyrics on purpose sometimes.

The new song about Jesus at the and of the convention is pretty good.

I came across a comment in a book called Hell: In Search of a Christian Ecology by Timothy Morton that said Jehovah’s Witnesses have all the best tunes, but it turns out he was talking about Prince and The New Radicals, not the JW songbook.

25

Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

.

no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

slimboyfat

Sea Breeze, if you prefer the Byzantine text to the modern critical text produced by scholars fair enough, there are some who take that position. And yes I agree that quotations from early church fathers is one of the strands of witnesses that can be useful for recovering the early text. Scholars who argue for “God was manifest in the flesh” in 1 Tim 3:16 are in the minority, but even if it is to be preferred, it could be compatible with JW theology because Jesus was the one who revealed the invisible God because he is the exact representation of his Father. But once again you are ranging quite wide in a scattergun approach to salvage some point from the thread. They are all interesting topics for sure but it’s noticeable each time you don’t have the courtesy to acknowledge the previous point before going on to the next claim.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

slimboyfat

Thanks, Blondie, for the examples, especially the 2024 up to date one. 👍

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

slimboyfat

One of the few places in WT literature I have found where Jesus is called an “angel” is in the old pink children’s book Listening to the Great Teacher, page 16.

Does anyone know any others?

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

slimboyfat

I agree vienne, that’s essentially the reason: JWs believe Jesus is in a class of his own and therefore superior to the angels. He is an angel in the sense that he is a spirit creature, and “angel” is the term for a spirit creature, but he is far superior to all the other spirit creatures, both because he is the only-begotten, and because he was exalted to an even higher position after his resurrection. I think that’s the reason why JWs use term sparingly, because there is much more to be said about Jesus and more exalted descriptions that are appropriate than just the description “angel”.

On the other hand, the reason why opponents of JWs use the term “angel” so often to describe the JW view of Jesus is because it gives the impression that JWs in some sense belittle Jesus’ position, or view him as a “mere angel” - I’ve seen that phrase used a few times in anti-JW literature, but never in the WT. In one sense it’s fair enough, from a Trinitarian perspective, because no matter how exalted JWs view Jesus, they still think he is a creature, and for Trinitarians that just doesn’t cut it. Yet, I think it would be more honest for Trinitarians, who are describing the views of JWs, to acknowledge that JWs don’t view Jesus as a “mere angel”. They believe he is totally unique and far above the other angels. It’s fair enough for Trinitarians to dispute the fact that Jesus is a creature, but it would do them credit to also acknowledge just how unique and exalted JWs view Jesus.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

slimboyfat

I would suggest:

The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

The short answer is yes because Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion. They have sometimes described Jesus an “angel” too.

The reason a longer answer might be interesting and relevant is because it is somewhat surprising (it was surprising to me at least) just how few times Watchtower literature has stated flat out that Jesus is an “angel”, as simple as that. After some searching, I can only find a handful of examples in their entire history where they have called Jesus an angel. But maybe I’ve overlooked some! So firstly, I would be really interested and appreciative if others know of examples where Jesus is called an “angel” in Watchtower literature.

Statements that Jesus is Michael the archangel are easy to find, but in many ways that is not as interesting, because even some Trinitarian churches (SDA) and leaders (Luther and others) can agree/d that Jesus is the archangel Michael. They would argue Michael is one of the names of Jesus, but they don’t think it makes him an angel, or subordinate to God.

I have my own theory as to why JWs so seldom describe Jesus as an “angel”. and why, in contrast, their opponents so often highlight their belief in Jesus as an “angel”. But I’m interested to hear what others think, and especially interested in WT references that called Jesus an “angel”.

25

Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

slimboyfat

Sea Breeze you thought you had found something surprising in early Watchtower literature but you failed to note the context where they repeated their familiar stance in full: that Jesus is God’s first creation, separate from and subordinate to God, was a man while he was on earth, and that the incarnation doctrine is false. Instead of taking the correction, you go off on a tangent about “Lord” in 1 Cor 15:47 that JWs didn’t have a problem with anyway. Modern versions don’t have Lord in this verse because it’s not in the critical Greek text based on the earliest manuscripts - NIV, NLT, RSV, NWT, GNB, NASB, and on and on. The “modern” versions you provide as proof are translations earlier than the King James or based on the King James and its Greek text. What are you doing here?