Posts by slimboyfat

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Dagney asked why are some verses taken literally & not others??
Thats what I'd like to know & many others
It’s called "" cherry picking "".

The argument is that since the 144,000 in Revelation is directly contrasted with a “great crowd, which no man was able to number” (Rev 7.9), therefore the 144,000 is taken to be a literal number. Also there is mention in Romans 11.25 of “the full number” of those grafted onto Israel from the nations, which is taken to indicate that the “Israel of God” (Gal 6.16) comprises a specific number of individuals that once filled is, um, full.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Every Memorial.

Which is neither print nor broadcast. 😜

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Yes, I agree with all that, there are disadvantages to changing it. And it does seem like a reasonable belief to me: the perennial question WT has posed “a kingdom/government has rulers as well as subjects, doesn’t it?” seems fair, and the 144,000 a reasonable part of that “arrangement”, to use a theocratic word.

If they do make a change the reasoning could be as follows: the suggestion that some partakers are mistaken, or psychologically unbalanced, might have been conceived as a kind of stop-gap measure while numbers climbed temporarily. If numbers look like climbing indefinitely then that might be what motivates them to make a change.

As I understand it, the 1935 date was not arrived at from scripture, it was inferred because that’s when JWs themselves applied the Great Crowd to some of their own members in a novel way. Maybe the idea of the 144,000 not being literal could be conceived as a similar inference drawn from events within the modern day organisation.

Having said that, I agree with you the literal 144,000 teaching makes sense and doesn’t really need to be changed. But then, not all their changes make sense in my opinion. I don’t see the rationale for not counting time any more for example. It seems like a needless change with only downsides. Although I suspect in that case they may possibly have legal reasons for the change they are not disclosing.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

If it’s dropped to appease governments I think it misses the target. Governments and societies care how JWs treat ex members, not about doctrines like the 144,000.

The rationale for changing it would presumably be the fact that it’s increasingly difficult to sustain only the idea of 144,000 anointed Christians across nearly 2000 years when you have 20,000+ partaking annually and the number continues increasing.

22

WHEN WILL THE ANOINTED BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/sptboe8_kuc?si=cnb837qqdlm1glx0.

this is a question that has preoccupied the minds of the governing body " when will the last anointed be taken up to heaven?

" when did this nonsense begin ?

slimboyfat

No, I don't think so. The argument is that it was in 1935 that the identification of the great crowd referred to in Revelation 7 occurred. As that identification was given by one of the 24 elders (who represent the 144,000), it is clear that some of the 144,000 must have been resurrected by that time. So the start of the first resurrection could not be after 1935.
While it is true that 1935 has been dropped as a significant date related to when the selection of the anointed ends, the fact remains that it was then that the great crowd were identified.

👍

22

WHEN WILL THE ANOINTED BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/sptboe8_kuc?si=cnb837qqdlm1glx0.

this is a question that has preoccupied the minds of the governing body " when will the last anointed be taken up to heaven?

" when did this nonsense begin ?

slimboyfat

That’s an interesting quote from 2007, but hasn’t WT since dropped 1935 as a significant date related to the selection of the anointed? If so, that would tend to suggest 1935 no longer has any bearing on the timing of the first resurrection either.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

FFGhost good point, why would they state the number in the QFR if they were planning on dropping it? This is probably a false alarm.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

It was a hard core doctrine. Why change it? It creates only problems. It is not an issue to be solved.

Because the numbers don’t work and the number of anointed keeps on increasing?

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Hold your horses everybody, the rumour is they’re dropping the literal 144,000, this doesn’t necessarily mean dropping the anointed heavenly hope/other sheep earthly hope distinction. They could still maintain they are two distinct groups, and the anointed are a smaller group, but just that the exact number isn’t defined …

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Can anyone identify the last time WT affirmed the literal 144,000 teaching in print or in broadcast? Because they sometimes have a lead-in time of a year or two where they go silent on a teaching before ditching it.