Posts by slimboyfat

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

I think they do add up, if you allow for around 50,000 in the first century, 50,000 in modern times, and around 44,000 in between. This takes into account that not all anointed “finish their course” faithful to the end.

50,000 is realistic for the first century going by the figures of sociologist Rodney Stark. And 50,000 is realistic for modern times because I think the peak number of anointed ever reported was around 30,000, and again, not all reported anointed remain faithful to death. Say around half the people who report anointed stay faithful to death as a rough estimate.

The 44,000 in between is a pure guess because who knows what counts as anointed in this period. Figures such as Tyndale and Servetus have at times been suggested, and I think the description of a “trickle” has been used.

So all in all, the numbers do add up, although each year that passes, and each increase reported does put a strain on that.

8

New book

by Levislet in

jw
friends

manuscript : knowledge book.

.

slimboyfat

Nice design

53

WTS 2024 Annual Business Meeting ...

by careful in

... is just three weeks from this saturday.

the org has been tight-lipped, really, successfully secret about advance info on these in recent years,.

now that these relatively recent changes on dress and grooming, reporting fs time, judicial matters, etc.

slimboyfat

It’s probably safe to say that more people have encountered JWs preaching than any other religion. Their literature has probably reached more people than the literature of any other religious organisation. Their website is in more languages than any other religious website. They spend more time preaching. I could drone on.

53

WTS 2024 Annual Business Meeting ...

by careful in

... is just three weeks from this saturday.

the org has been tight-lipped, really, successfully secret about advance info on these in recent years,.

now that these relatively recent changes on dress and grooming, reporting fs time, judicial matters, etc.

slimboyfat

I thought it was Matt 24:14 being fulfilled by JWs:

And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Dagney asked why are some verses taken literally & not others??
Thats what I'd like to know & many others
It’s called "" cherry picking "".

The argument is that since the 144,000 in Revelation is directly contrasted with a “great crowd, which no man was able to number” (Rev 7.9), therefore the 144,000 is taken to be a literal number. Also there is mention in Romans 11.25 of “the full number” of those grafted onto Israel from the nations, which is taken to indicate that the “Israel of God” (Gal 6.16) comprises a specific number of individuals that once filled is, um, full.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Every Memorial.

Which is neither print nor broadcast. 😜

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

Yes, I agree with all that, there are disadvantages to changing it. And it does seem like a reasonable belief to me: the perennial question WT has posed “a kingdom/government has rulers as well as subjects, doesn’t it?” seems fair, and the 144,000 a reasonable part of that “arrangement”, to use a theocratic word.

If they do make a change the reasoning could be as follows: the suggestion that some partakers are mistaken, or psychologically unbalanced, might have been conceived as a kind of stop-gap measure while numbers climbed temporarily. If numbers look like climbing indefinitely then that might be what motivates them to make a change.

As I understand it, the 1935 date was not arrived at from scripture, it was inferred because that’s when JWs themselves applied the Great Crowd to some of their own members in a novel way. Maybe the idea of the 144,000 not being literal could be conceived as a similar inference drawn from events within the modern day organisation.

Having said that, I agree with you the literal 144,000 teaching makes sense and doesn’t really need to be changed. But then, not all their changes make sense in my opinion. I don’t see the rationale for not counting time any more for example. It seems like a needless change with only downsides. Although I suspect in that case they may possibly have legal reasons for the change they are not disclosing.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

slimboyfat

If it’s dropped to appease governments I think it misses the target. Governments and societies care how JWs treat ex members, not about doctrines like the 144,000.

The rationale for changing it would presumably be the fact that it’s increasingly difficult to sustain only the idea of 144,000 anointed Christians across nearly 2000 years when you have 20,000+ partaking annually and the number continues increasing.

22

WHEN WILL THE ANOINTED BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/sptboe8_kuc?si=cnb837qqdlm1glx0.

this is a question that has preoccupied the minds of the governing body " when will the last anointed be taken up to heaven?

" when did this nonsense begin ?

slimboyfat

No, I don't think so. The argument is that it was in 1935 that the identification of the great crowd referred to in Revelation 7 occurred. As that identification was given by one of the 24 elders (who represent the 144,000), it is clear that some of the 144,000 must have been resurrected by that time. So the start of the first resurrection could not be after 1935.
While it is true that 1935 has been dropped as a significant date related to when the selection of the anointed ends, the fact remains that it was then that the great crowd were identified.

👍

22

WHEN WILL THE ANOINTED BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/sptboe8_kuc?si=cnb837qqdlm1glx0.

this is a question that has preoccupied the minds of the governing body " when will the last anointed be taken up to heaven?

" when did this nonsense begin ?

slimboyfat

That’s an interesting quote from 2007, but hasn’t WT since dropped 1935 as a significant date related to the selection of the anointed? If so, that would tend to suggest 1935 no longer has any bearing on the timing of the first resurrection either.