Posts by slimboyfat

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

In explaining why John’s gospel presents Thomas calling Jesus “my Lord and my God” in John 20.28, the scholar Adela Yarbro Collins interprets it within a context in which Roman emperors were given titles such as Lord, Son of God, God, and Saviour, and the combined title “Lord and God” in particular. By applying all those titles to Jesus, the author of the gospel of John was asserting that Jesus is equal and surpasses any of the claims that could be made for Caesar. Couldn’t this inscription be saying something similar? The gospel of John, in common with the rest of the NT, also clearly shows that Jesus is distinguished from God and is subordinate to him - John 14.28, 17.3, 20.17, and many other passages. Being greater than Caesar clearly does not necessitate being the one true God.

Whatever the phrase does mean, its meaning needs to be found in its own setting, not in future understanding about the Trinity that hadn’t even been developed yet. Say we found an early modern text that used the phrase “moon landing”. It might be a perplexing phrase, but whatever its real meaning is, it needs to be sought and found in the early modern context, not 1969.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

I don’t understand why this inscription is thought to be significant for early Christology even if it did call Jesus “god”. Jesus was certainly called “god” in early Christianity, this is agreed by all scholars and by JWs. Key verses where this is certain in early Christianity include Isaiah 9.6, John 1.1, and John 20.28, and Hebrews 1.8 is likely. Far less likely are Romans 9.5 and a few others, but not impossible. Crucially, the angels were also called gods in this period, as were some historic figures such as Moses. Moses was called a god already in the Torah, in his role representing Jehovah in Exodus 4.16 and 7.1, and this sense is also crucial for understanding the sense in which Jesus was viewed as god. Justin Martyr in the second century used the titles “god” and “angel” for Jesus side by side, and Origen in the third century described Jesus as a “second god”, and characterised him as subordinate to God. The issue is not whether Jesus was called god, the issue is what that means. In the context of scripture it means that he is a mighty spirit creature and that he represents Jehovah as his chief agent. This is what the Bible teaches Jesus’ role is. What is also very clear is that Jesus refers to God as his God throughout scripture (John 17.3, 20.17, Revelation 3.12). It was not until later centuries that Jesus’ identity was confused with God himself and his representative role was distorted and misrepresented, culminating in the church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries, when the original meaning of Jesus as god was eclipsed.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

The straightforward reading of Colossians 1:15–20 is that Jesus is the firstborn of creation who in turn was God’s agent in creating the universe. This theme of God’s Word/Wisdom/firstborn being used by God to create everything is familiar from Jewish texts such as Proverbs, Wisdom, and the works of Philo.

Scholar Maurice Casey explains it this way:

Similar remarks may be made about Colossians 1.15-20. So much of it has static parallels from Jewish speculation about Wisdom that we must infer an author who felt that what had previously been believed of Wisdom was true of Jesus. It begins with Jesus' pre-existence and role in creation: "who is an image of the invisible God, firstbom of all creation, for through him was created everything in heaven and on earth." This description must mean that Jesus, rather than Wisdom, or as Wisdom, was the first created being (of Prov 8.22f; Philo, Qu in Gen., IV, 97). This was written centuries before Arius, when no-one believed that Jesus was the second person of the Trinity. The assertions that he was created before the world and participated in its creation were a significant advance on previous thought. They could not have been made unless it was supposed that Jesus was pre-existent, as Wisdom was perceived to have existed before the creation of the universe that she was believed to have created. Colossians 1.16-17 expands this midrashically, using Proverbs 8.22-29, and moving back from Proverbs 8.22 to Genesis 1.1.42.
Maurice Casey, From Jewish Prophet to Gentile God: The Origins and Development of New Testament Christology (1991), page 115.

19

Did Tony Morris Get Sideways with His Bros.?

by Sea Breeze in

interesting video connects the dots.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ff1ibybfe4&t=205s&pp=2ahnazacaq%3d%3d.

slimboyfat

Which is not to say that WT might not try to effect a harder line on shunning through informal channels and verbal communications to elders. They may well try to do that, but they may find they have limited success readjusting the behaviour of JWs in general with that strategy, because, as many see it, the wording of the Watchtower has granted them permission to stop shunning if they wish.

19

Did Tony Morris Get Sideways with His Bros.?

by Sea Breeze in

interesting video connects the dots.

.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ff1ibybfe4&t=205s&pp=2ahnazacaq%3d%3d.

slimboyfat

The trouble with elders being told in private that shunning should continue is that ordinary JWs, in particular sisters, won’t get the memo. I know local sisters who paid very close attention to the wording of the recent WT on shunning and have already adjusted their behaviour toward disfellowshipped relatives and acquaintances accordingly. If in future elders come around and tell them to knock it off and resume shunning in full then I think they’ll have some difficulty because, as they see it, they have written permission in black and white in the WT itself to stop shunning. The only way to turn that around, as far as I can see, is for another WT to be published that fully reinstates the old policies and for the old shunning videos to be reposted and endorsed all over again. But the cat’s out the bag and I can’t see that happening now.

2965

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

Well he made a pitch for 200 more suckers to send him more money. It looks like he’s got about 40 - that’s around 20% of the target. Plus we will see how many drop off at the end of the month.

He said he needed 570 to be “sustainable” and not be “forced” to issue yet more begging videos. Is that an implicit promise to pack it in if he stays well below 570? Because he doesn’t look like anywhere near that. In reality he will probably still be collecting money from any remaining donors years after he’s stopped producing videos altogether.

Notice how he said that Ad revenue gets him $1200 a month but he didn’t mention how much his patron and other begging measures generate. In one sense that’s odd because it was patron numbers he was aiming to increase. On the other hand, perhaps he believes that if he revealed how much patrons already send him each month then people would be less inclined to send him any more. So it’s a pretty cynical partial disclosure of his financial situation.

Whatever tricks he pulls, it seems pretty clear he’s making less money out of begging this year than he did last year, and that he’ll make less money from begging next year than he did this year. That’s got to be depressing. Has he got any kind of plan to get out of this spiral? Two obvious plans would be improve his channel or else find a job instead. He doesn’t give any indication of doing either. 🤷‍♂️

19

Did Tony Morris Get Sideways with His Bros.?

by Sea Breeze in

interesting video connects the dots.

.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ff1ibybfe4&t=205s&pp=2ahnazacaq%3d%3d.

slimboyfat

Seems plausible.

It’s amusing if the GB have contrived to bring about the worst of all worlds for themselves where they have failed to convince governments that their policy on shunning has actually changed (because technically it hasn’t) but ordinary JWs have perceived the new wording as permission to end shunning if they wish.

They were perhaps aiming for a formulation of words that allowed them to pretend the policy had substantially changed while keeping the practice in place, but may have ended up with the reverse.

18

Biden gives the order to Zelenskyy to Use the long range missiles to hit the interior of Russian territory

by liam in

the war in ukraine has now escalated.

europe is now talking of getting involved in the war to curb the north korean armies that are helping russia.

putin has warned that this will now give him no choice but to retaliate against nato nations.. the biden administration and the democrats in congress want to make sure that the war escalates to such a point that trump won't be able to bring peace to the war in ukraine.

slimboyfat

Oh yeah, this is going to end well. Having a world was nice while it lasted. 🌎

2965

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

Oh for crying out loud how long is this going to drag on? 🙄

28

Pre-Nicene christians and the trinity

by joey jojo in

this is just a quick summary that might be useful regarding the threads about the trinity currently on the board.. in 325 ce, the nicene council was called by constantine to settle schisms within the christian church.

the argument about the nature of jesus in relation to god was one of the big problems that needed resolution.

at first, constantine told the 2 main players, alexander and arius to sort it out between themselves, as he, constantine didnt see it as overly important.

slimboyfat

Yes, Earnest, and as well as burning and suppressing earlier works that didn’t align with later Nicene theology, another tactic was to rewrite earlier works to make them appear more orthodox Trinitarian. Rufinus, for example, rewrote works by Origen to temper his subordinationist theology to an extent that in many instances it is difficult to know where later orthodox statements have been interpolated in Origen’s work, or where indeed statements or passages inconvenient for later Nicene theology have been removed altogether.